T vs F stop of Cine Lenses

[Greg Lowry]

You may all think it's fine, but I wouldn't hire a shooter whose fundamental knowledge of photography was so thin, and I none of the people I know would either. But that's just me and my circle I guess. There are too many other truly qualified, talented and dedicated people available. If somebody comes here and asks the difference between and f-stop and a T-stop it means they haven't taken even a few minutes to research the subject themselves. In my book, they're lazy. And that's strike two. Just my opinion.

[Steve Gibby]

Well-said Charles. Image acquisition may be ENG-style, cine-style, or a combination of the two - which may be termed as convergent acquisition. There are people who spend a whole career shooting ENG-style, and conversely ones who spend an entire working life shooting cine-style. I think we're seeing less and less of those mono-dimensional shooters in the marketplace. As the lenses and techniques of the traditional film world have converged with the electronics of the traditional television/video world, the labor force demand for shooters who understand both has increased exponentially - and will continue to do so.

Greg, I've hired and worked with thousands of top-quality television and video shooters who probably couldn't tell you what a T stop was - and yet they maximize the equipment of their trade and constantly bring back perfectly exposed and focused footage. As a producer/director I’m not concerned with hiring theorists who can quote me a broad-spectrum of tech specs, but rather people who can get me great footage with the equipment we’re using for that particular project. If the project at hand I’m hiring them for is ENG-style, its genre won’t require my shooters to use cinematic techniques, and I know they’ll nail the footage the way I want, they’ll get hired. As a producer/director I'll continue to hire those same people for projects where the equipment used and the genre of production simply don't require them to shoot to know what a T stop is. When I produce/direct a project that will require the use of cinematic equipment and techniques, obviously the shooters I hire will be people with cinematic backgrounds. If it’s a production where we use both cine-style and ENG-style gear and techniques, I’ll hire people whose skills span both disciplines. These are the true media convergence shooters – and they’ll be in highest demand in the years to come.

There’s a huge spectrum of project types in the overall motion media imaging industry that don’t require shooters to know film style equipment or techniques. I don’t agree with writing them all off as being lazy, ignorant proletariat who haven’t done their homework, anymore than I buy TV/video people looking at traditional film people as all being a bunch of plodding, slow –working, electro-phobic elitists. The fiscal realities of the media marketplace dictate that the shooters with the broadest skill sets get hired for the widest range of motion media projects. If someone wants to shoot themselves in the foot by being mono-dimensional in an increasingly multi-dimensional image acquisition industry I guess they’ll have to lie in the techno-challenged grave they dug for themselves.

Nobody is born knowing anything. We all start learning from birth. If someone’s career path has not required them to use cine-style equipment or techniques, they now want to learn, and they don’t know what a T stop is, I’ll reel them out some slack and welcome their desire to learn.

Patience and tolerance from both persuasions are the glue that can unify the disparate halves of a convergent motion media industry.

[Greg Lowry]

To suggest that someone who knows the difference between an f-stop and T-stop is a "theorist" is absurb. If someone working professionally in the industry doesn't know the basics, one cannot communicate properly with that person and therefore one cannot hope to achieve optimum results. I'm happy for you if your experience is otherwise. This appears to be an exercise in having the last word. I defer that to you as I've expressed my point of view.

[Steve Gibby]

I think you missed the point of my theorist comment. I was illustrating that it is one thing to memorize and quote tech specs, but If they're not also a practical applicationist (translation: actual good camera person) all the tech memorization in the world won't get them by on location. There's a gigantic array of ENG-style TV and video production projects going on continually around the world where nobody on the crew needs to know what a T stop is - and yet they do top-level work in their particular niche of the motion media industry. Do we write them all of as being a lower class of production people because of that? I don't think so...

You see, having a background in both cine-style and ENG-style production, I've earned a healthy respect for both persuasions. That said, I've enjoyed learning both disciplines. It's been rewarding professionally and financially.

Post script: We've had a few ping pong matches before, but I think you know that I respect your knowledge and opinions. Everyone has to have strong opinions to survive in the media industry. We've both been around for awhile, so we must be doing something right...

[Charles Papert]

Me, I don't judge people on this forum based on their lack of experience or knowledge--that's what this board is for, to pass information around. I do however pay attention to how they ask questions, and how they "play" with others, and I think Rory did well even when defending himself (although it probably would be a good idea to do a search on similar subjects before creating a thread, I know we've discussed this topic before)

I probably wouldn't hire someone to shoot for me who didn't know the difference between f-stops and t-stops either, but that's neither here nor there. I think it's pretty clear that Rory was asking a simple question, not soliciting us for employment.

It's too hot to go jousting, lads, let's get back on subject.

(every now and then the Wrangler in me pops out--just a leeeetle bit)

[Steve Gibby]

Good points...and as a Wrangler for this forum my entry into this thread was to keep everyone playing nicely.

Every now and then the Wrangler in me pops out a leeeeeeetle bit too!

[Jaadgy Akanni]

Interesting convo. I have a confession to make: I don't know jack about anything, at least not yet-I'm still not quite sure I know the difference between f-stops and T-stops; in fact, I don't know most of the stuff I read about here, but I'm learning. As long as the people at RED don't require me to know anything about anything in order for me to qualify as a buyer, I plan on purchasing me a pair of RED Cameras. If you sell it, doggone it, I will buy it! Any objections?

[Steve Gibby]

As a moderator for this forum, I can tell you that this forum is a learning center. The only stupid question is one that isn't asked. We're here to help you learn...

LOL...I'm sure RED won't mind if you buy a couple of their cameras! You have about five months or so to gather knowledge, but some things just take time. I'd suggest you bring in some experienced shooters to shoot your RED cameras for you and that you pick their brains and watch them closely until you're real proficient with them.

[Rory Hinds]

Originally Posted by Greg Lowry

You may all think it's fine, but I wouldn't hire a shooter whose fundamental knowledge of photography was so thin, and I none of the people I know would either. But that's just me and my circle I guess. There are too many other truly qualified, talented and dedicated people available. If somebody comes here and asks the difference between and f-stop and a T-stop it means they haven't taken even a few minutes to research the subject themselves. In my book, they're lazy. And that's strike two. Just my opinion.

So Greg, now that I know the difference between an F stop & T stop would you hire me :-)

If you had done a little research yourself you would have found out that I'm a 31 year old director and colourist with a post production background.

http://www.whatismine.com/html/who.htm

I'm not a cameraman.

We hire cameramen for our projects and recently I have been getting involved in a bit of DOP'ing myself as I really enjoy creating imaginary.

I am very familiar with F stops as sometimes put on my photographer shoes...

http://www.whatismine.com/html/photography.htm

Having done a little research and talking to other directors about T Stops I wasn't satisfied so thought I would ask the knowledge base of the DVinfo forum.

Mine plans to shoot a feature film with RED early next year and in preparation I'm looking around at used Arri lenses as I don't want to go down the hire route. Before I make a $21,000 purchase I'd like to learn all I can about the subject so I know I'm buying the right tools for the job and that the tools will deliver what I want artistically.

I've been playing with my DVX and M2 35m Lens adaptor which is proving to be an amazing learning exercise in storytelling with Depth of Field. I recently purchased a SteadiCam like stabiliser and having a skateboarding background I'm really enjoying it.

The term Motion Media Convergent, to me tells the same story of the Print world years ago. When DTP changed the old ways of doing things. A lot of old school Print pro's where very scared of computers, and failed to realise that it was still all about the end product.

"Media Convergent" - you can no longer just do one job to survive financially.

At Mine we produce Music commercials, Music Video's, Short and Feature films. We also create DVD's, our latest being for the band Muse and the BBC's Ray Mears.

We offer HD Finishing including Colour Correction and Visual Effects and handle all the necessary broadcast paperwork. We've done event photography and produced countless Radio commercials as well as doing graphic design and web site development.

Our rates remain competitive and our attitude flexible to accommodate the wide variety of clients.

Don Donatello & Brian Drysdale explanation that T Stop is the measurement taken of the amount of light out the back of the lens was perfect for me to get clear in my head.

Understanding that you can safely change lenses and set the same T Stop would provide the same results was priceless share information. Using a zoom to a prime would give you the same exposure when using T stops.

Cool, I feel I have expanded my knowledge. Yet I have so much more to learn.

My thurst for knowledge is relentless.

I can't wait to see some RED footage at IBC

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Greg Lowry

To suggest that someone who knows the difference between an f-stop and T-stop is a "theorist" is absurb. If someone working professionally in the industry doesn't know the basics, one cannot communicate properly with that person and therefore one cannot hope to achieve optimum results. I'm happy for you if your experience is otherwise. This appears to be an exercise in having the last word. I defer that to you as I've expressed my point of view.

Now why a TV/news cameraman has the need to know what a T-stop is to do a "professional" job scapes me the sense of reason.

[Mathieu Kassovitz]

Okay, I will formulate the hype: these Greg Lowry's posts scape us the sense of any reason viewing from the strictly sense of common streetwise. It's just ordinary corporate professionalism and not real one. This is shown in the field not posting from here. Just my opinion.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Mathieu, completely off topic, but still: are you interested in the RED camera?
I read in your posts you're very interested in the Silicon camera, but I was curious of RED was in your interest too?
sorry to go off topic

[Joseph Mastantuono]

I have a small prediction:

In the future, professionals will look at shooting on film much in the same way that editors look at cutting on flatbeds.

However, no matter what you're doing, shooting is about light, and F-stops (and t-stops) is a useful way of talking light because it takes into consideration light's logarithmic attributes. One of the reasons I like the DVX-100 is that it tells me what f-stop I am at. Now, the depth of field I'm getting is different (I.E: since you are stopping down the sensor as opposed to the actual apeture of the lens, I imagine you DOF stays constant), But it's useful, in using filters gels lightmeters and flags.

If you're not using lightmeters, flags, gels, multiple light set ups, then there's no need. On the flipside the video guy knows that what he sees is what he gets (which is the video world), and simply adjusts things accordingly.

In a world where you *don't* know what your getting until it comes back from the lab, all this mucking about with f-stops and light meters is *crucial*. Much like, knowing that 40 frames of 16mm = 1 ft.

I see an advantage of the red camera will allow us to control the traditional F-Stop as well as the gain (acting as our ISO/ASA). So you can control your DOF without touching a single light or changing the angle of view of the lens. Just theorizing...

Oh, and I know this isn't the place for this but... Shout out to Mathieu (J'suis un ex-pat a newyork, J'ai beacoup aimer La Haine. Tu savais qu'il y'a des jeunes qui s'ont passez leurs adolescense dans les cité de harlem et brooklyn l'ons vu conte le film comme une experience transformative?)

[Joe Carney]

As a person just getting in to more 'professional' areas of movie making, thanks to every one who answers these questions and doesn't cast judgement on the questioner. I didn't know the difference between t and f either. Using 'video' cameras' and using f stop for everything, even when trying to make it look like film. At least when I buy my Letus35, I'll have some knowledge to start with.

Thanks to all.