Camera for good bokeh?

[John Nantz]

Decisions, decisions….
Giving up on the search for a camcorder with interchangeable lens capability. Have been considering the FS5M2 but deciding to reach out for another option: a “still camera” with video capability. The one in my sights is the Sony a7IV for several reasons, but want to get some feedback on what others think should be considered.

First, the situation. Covid… yes, that has changed everything and upset my plans. The choir and music video (artists with their instruments, not the pop-music TV kind of video) has changed. Non-existent or “Tanked” is probably a more applicable word, largely due to the desire to avoid crowds. Vacation video is also out. Sailing, biking, and family videos is still doable but this is a real reduction in the amount of video opportunity. The new situation has really changed the needs for video and photography. Until now, the main photography camera was the iPhone (drop some pictures into the timeline) and maybe even a few video clips in the family videos.

The thought now is to add the a7IV to the kit. The kit consists of the AX700, AX53 (for B-roll handheld and general shots), X3000 sport cam. Also have my wife’s CX380 with is essentially a pocket cam. Point is, everything is Sony so color and accessories (batteries, remotes, cords, etc) generally work together. Each cam, like the mechanics tool box, fills a niche for where it works well.

The a7 will fill another niche that is needed, which is with a prime lens for good bokeh of up-close and personal shots to slip into the timeline.

1. The a7 uses a different battery from all the above but can use the same BC-TRX battery charger as the X3000 even though the batteries are different.

2. The positives for the a7 is it uses a more recent operating system than, say, the FS5 and is more portable, especially for overseas travel.

3. The downside is the arduous video control capability (my opinion) when used as a video cam; however, the plan is to use it primarily in situations that are ‘reasonably’ planed so certain settings can be more-or-less preset.

4. Concerns include (1) auto-focus with regard to eye and eyelash focus comments and (2) overheating in longer shots. I’m not sure how much of an issue the reported eye & eyelash focus concern should be (pixel-peeper concerns?) in a handheld shot as there won’t be time to fiddle with dialing the focus in. Tripod-mode in photo-mode would be better except the LCD screen would have to be used to zoom in for focus. On the other hand, really don’t plan on using it in tripod-mode. Maybe a few times for a wall picture? With regard to overheating, don’t plan on using it for long takes as a video camera so maybe this isn’t a concern.

The primary purpose for the camera is for good bokeh of up-close and personal shots to slip into the timeline (head & shoulders to body height and family shots).

This is a significant decision as a prime lens would need to be added. There are a couple old Nikon lenses (28mm and 135mm) available that, with an adapter, might be useable for the interim until a prime lens if found. Otherwise, it would be just a paperweight.

The other camera option I’ve thought about is the Lumix GH6 model but haven't explored it. How would it fit in the current kit? And editing system?
Tough decision so requesting feedback.

[Christopher Young]

I went with the A7iv for a multitude of reasons over the A7Siii. They are all too numerous to mention here. I will mention a few.

#1 Most important for me is dynamic range, way above rolling shutter for example. In dynamic range only five very expensive dedicated cine cameras had better dynamic range. See CineD's attached pix.

#2 APSC Crop mode. I have numerous S35 and APSC prime and zoom lenses. They are smaller and lighter to work with for general work. If I want that "bokeh" look I'll use my FF primes and zooms. Though I'm finding fewer and fewer producers wanting the shallow DOF "bokeh" look as many are finding it pretty well overdone in many cases, and they want their work to break away from that "look".

#3 The A7iv has focus breathing compensation with certain of Sony's lenses. I hate focus breathing. Though I find with the excellent Tamron FF 28-75 and their APSC 18-300 focus breathing is almost non-existent.

4# On my trials with the A7iv I tested it for overheating. No problems. Since then, I've run the A7iv indoors in 24 degree Celsius theatres for close to three hours nonstop in 4K 422 10-bit with no overheating issues. Not even an overheat warning. Mind you, that is with the menu temp setting set to "High" and the screen flipped out. That's running the A7iv with an internal battery along with a 9volt 45watt 3amp USB-C PD power supply as recommended by Sony.

#5 When I want stills, it totally leaves the A7Siii for dead on enlargements.

BTW. Video control capability with the A7iv is very configurable. I can always share my video control config setup if it's any use to you. These setups can be saved and exported by the way.

If one isn't happy when a camera in this price range that can produce images with the dynamic range and quality of image as shown in Jacques Crafford's A7iv launch video, then you are a hard man to please.

Check out his clip below. Also, the very first test shots I did, day and nigh, with the A7iv are below.

To sum up, I am very happy with the A7iv's output. It also compliments my S35 FS7's very well in multicam shoots.

Chris Young

Sony A7IV CINEMATIC VIDEO Footage - Launch Film shot on Sony A7m4 - YouTube

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

[Noa Put]

I would not consider the GH6 as the colors will be different, continuous autofocus is also unreliable. The new panasonic S5 mark 2 however has much improved autofocus and is close to what Sony can do but still not as good but again you would have issues matching colors with Sony camera's. So the a74 seems like the best choice for you, in regard to lenses, just get a Sony 24-70 f2.8 zoom (or the cheaper 28-70 f2.8 from sigma). For close ups (video) shooting at f1.4 is overkill unless you like having the eyes in focus but the rest of the face blurry, at f2.8 you still can get nice bokeh that will match your other camera's better (AX700, AX53), otherwise f1.4 shots will stick out like a sore thumb when mixed with handycam footage.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I made the jump myself and bought an A7 IV a couple of weeks ago. I mostly like it but I'm also annoyed with it's quirks and usability issues. There is a complexity to setting it up to suit one's need. Things that should be straight forward are not. For example setting white balance you need to go into the menu taking 3-4 clicks when a camcorder it could be done by clicking the dedicated wb button. I've also discovered custom white balance will not work with the three camera custom presets...

[John Nantz]

Chris -
Lots of good helpful points!!

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

#2 ...If I want that "bokeh" look I'll use my FF primes and zooms. Though I'm finding fewer and fewer producers wanting the shallow DOF "bokeh" look as many are finding it pretty well overdone in many cases, and they want their work to break away from that "look".

Seems some ‘styles’ become a fad then die out. Back in “the old days” with 35mm film, there was a period where the “soft focus” filter was 'a thing' but haven’t read anything about that for a long time.
After researching prime lenses the past few days, and looking at the examples, I’d agree it can look overdone.
I’ve thought about using the hyperfocal distance as a possible work-around but just thinking about it is difficult. My old Nikon manual focus lenses had the hyperlocal range indicated on the lens barrel so it was easy; however, the cams I have don’t have hyperfocal indications on the lens barrel and the AX53 does't even have a lens barrel because it is gimbaled and internal. Perhaps there can be a work-around but haven't explored that possibility. The good autofocus and a prime lens would make that part easier so less to deal with while in the middle of a particular shot.

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

4# On my trials with the A7iv I tested it for overheating. No problems.

Very good to know.

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

#5 When I want stills, it totally leaves the A7Siii for dead on enlargements. ....I can always share my video control config setup if it's any use to you. These setups can be saved and exported by the way.

One plan is to take some family photos. I have a number of backdrops available, as well as green screen, so that would be an avenue to pursue. The setups would definitely be of interest.

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

Check out his clip below. Also, the very first test shots I did, day and nigh, with the A7iv are below.

I remember seeing the clip before, looked at it again but this time noticed the people eating ice cream cones. Overnight temperature here was 22ºF, daytime 40ºF

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

To sum up, I am very happy with the A7iv's output. It also compliments my S35 FS7's very well in multicam shoots.

Very good to know, especially the color aspect.
Thanks for all the good information.

[John Nantz]

As they say in flying (pilot talk), “Trouble comes in bunches”.

Seems that Monday can often be a busy day, and today it really was. With a number of things that cropped up that had to be taken care of; consequently, didn’t get much accomplished on the camera front. The workload will definitely stretch out into next week so the camera I was looking at might be gone. But…

The last thing I did this afternoon was notice the stock market results and (essentially) everything was in the red. One of the reasons was several of the tech companies (Apple included) will be providing their earnings. Apple just announced a $500 price drop on a couple high-end items probably to move inventory that wasn’t being sold enough… an indicator? Or not? If more companies announce layoffs then there will be softer prices for our tech-ie things. Todays selloff may be a buy (stock) opportunity, or not. What to do?

Plan to get the work done I have to do, and do lens research if I can take a break. So far, the camera model seems to be a good addition to the kit.

[John Nantz]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I would not consider the GH6 as the colors will be different, continuous autofocus is also unreliable. The new panasonic S5 mark 2 however has much improved autofocus and is close to what Sony can do but still not as good but again you ...

This helps narrow down the options, and gives comfort with the camera selection process.

Originally Posted by Noa Put

...in regard to lenses, just get a Sony 24-70 f2.8 zoom (or the cheaper 28-70 f2.8 from sigma). For close ups (video) shooting at f1.4 is overkill unless you like having the eyes in focus but the rest of the face blurry, at f2.8 you still can get nice bokeh that will match your other camera's better (AX700, AX53), otherwise f1.4 shots will stick out like a sore thumb when mixed with handycam footage.

Good pointers and suggestions!
Thanks Noa.
Sure helpful having a wedding shooter around!!!

[John Nantz]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I made the jump myself and bought an A7 IV a couple of weeks ago. I mostly like it but I'm also annoyed with it's quirks and usability issues. There is a complexity to setting it up to suit one's need. Things that should be straight forward are not. ...

I'm afraid I'll join you with that annoyance...

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

For example setting white balance you need to go into the menu taking 3-4 clicks when a camcorder it could be done by clicking the dedicated wb button. I've also discovered custom white balance will not work with the three camera custom presets...

Groan....
Guess will need a crib sheet for starters

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

There is a complexity to setting it up to suit one's need. Things that should be straight forward are not. For example setting white balance you need to go into the menu taking 3-4 clicks when a camcorder it could be done by clicking the dedicated wb button. I've also discovered custom white balance will not work with the three camera custom presets...

I've come up with a very workable solution for me, at least. In video, I hardly ever shoot with a shutter speed other than 1/50 (PAL 50Hz land), so have programmed the EV rotary to shutter speed which with the center button depressed will lock whatever shutter speed you use. Great because that virtually eliminates accidentally changing the shutter speed.

The rotary wheel closest to the VF I've programmed as ISO. Also, very intuitive to use and easy with the camera at eye level.

I guess it's my old broadcast background, liking preset WB positions. Memory 1, 2 and 3 are programmed under the CAMERA SET MEMORY MENU as 3200K, 4400K and 5600K, all with 50th shutter. That way, I can quickly jump between the preset WBs.

My main other changes are, as I never use the tiny REC button on the top plate, I've set the little red video REC button to WB Lock (toggle ON/OF) I just use the normal shutter button for REC/STOP. Easy to find in the pitch dark, plus your ON/OFF is located around it.

I absolutely hate auto white balance if you have two or more cameras on AWB as the WB can change quite dramatically between a number of identical cameras in the same room with cameras roaming in mixed lighting. An almost impossible task to try and match in post. If they all go a little red or blue, at least using the same presets on each camera, they all drift WB in sync. That's so much easier to correct. Apply the same correction to all cameras.

Shooting single camera, my most used function is the little red REC button used as the WB Lock. If I've got a good AWB, I then just lock it from drifting. Change lighting or location dramatically? I just unlock the AWB and let it finds its value and if happy with that relock the AWB. Or I just select one of my preset whites under Memory 1, 2 and 3. Any of which can be very quickly adjusted up or down using the K setting. Plus, if you need to put a little red/blue magenta/green offset bias into your WB that also stores nicely under your customized WB preset 1-2-3 memories.

Alternatively, you may have luck with this A7Siii WB settings work-around under Memories 1-2-3. I haven't tried it on the A7iv because as I say, if my 1-2-3 preset values aren't correct for the shot in hand, I'll just dial the K value up or down to get a WB I'm happy with.

Chris Young

a7SIII Custom White Balance Memory Recall Workaround - YouTube

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Those are interesting suggestions but that’s what I mean you have come up with work arounds to do a standard thing.

Another annoying issue is the camera screen shuts off when plugging in a monitor. I discovered a workaround by turning off the data overlay it will display to both.

As far as heat it seems to be ok if you leave the lcd out. Not sure if I can have confidence if I filmed a locked off shot for an event 2+hr of continuous recording. I’m still surprised how hot the camera gets when not filming. When I was setting up the camera it shut down on me without the high heat setting on. Irritating that they didn’t design it with a built in fan.

[Noa Put]

These photocamera's are all build with a lot of limitations that you won't find in a real videocamera, I could live with that if they are reliable and I prefer to shoot with panasonic camera's for that reason.
The 2 Sony photocamera's I had or still have with video functionality proved to be unreliable for any long term shooting, I had a a7III shut down due to overheating in the middle of a indoor interview with normal room temperatures and it refused to start up again. Some years ago I had a Sony rx10 that during a ceremony where it was used as a safetycam started to shift focus from infinity to macro all by itself while it was in manual mode. My A7III also did something similar last year, several times during the last wedding of the season I shot it shifted focus while it was in manual focus, I had to refocus each time, started to shoot and the image became blurry again without me touching the camera (it was on a gimbal). It only did this once ever since I owned the camera.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I'm not trying single out Sony all of these mirror less cameras have these issues. Going back to white balance for example Canon R6 you still have to take a picture then go into the menu and select that picture out to set a custom wb. It has been this way for 16 years and they still haven't improved it. The Japanese camera manufactures are some combination of stupid, lazy, or intentionally self saboteurs. These same companies created camcorders and know how video should work but continue to make these "mistakes". All my camcorders have internal fans, all of these devices are miniature computers, computers since the late 70s have some form of active cooling. Why does it takes mob of angry owners to get them to do anything? The menu systems are still awful. Have you seen BMPK menu? All the important camera settings are on a single screen at the touch of your fingers.

[Doug Jensen]

Here's an idea, if you want all the features and functions of a professional video camera . . . then buy a video camera. The mirrorless cameras are just stills cameras that happen to have video tacked on as a bonus. I'm not saying you can't get fantastic video out of them, but it's a little like using a wrench instead of a hammer to pound nails. I wouldn't buy a blender and then complain it can't make toast.

[Christopher Young]

A video camera!? Now that's a novel idea. 100% agree.

I have three I use on various types of jobs, would never ditch my dedicated video cameras. Still, there is a place for these mirrorless jobs, and I'm now finding some clients specifying that sort of camera. Someone help me!!! And in certain quick fly-away interstate jobs where it's just for a couple of CEO interviews etc I'm more than happy to work with the A7 and a small lighting kit and 75mm sticks. Yes, they are still cameras and obviously have serious limitations for full-blown video productions, but yes they definitely have a place in the toolkit by virtue of the fact that they can deliver some great images.

Chris Young

[Doug Jensen]

And I have an a1 and S1H mirrorless cameras that I moslty use for video. But I accept their limitations and don't wring my hands wondering why Sony amd Panasonic didn't give them all the features of a video camera. They are what they are. On the flip side, I don't expect my video and cinema cameras to capture RAW photos, or any kind of stills, for that matter. Different product categories.