Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?

[Brian Drysdale]

Just because some things are used in professional films doesn't mean they're correct, When they were shot it may have planned to use the shot in a different part of the sequence, but circumstances meant they had to use it in a different place.

They can also make mistakes regarding eye lines, just because they've made it, doesn't mean you have to.

[Paul R Johnson]

"embrace the micro budget?" what absolute rubbish Ryan - you really are not in the same world that we are.

You mention you're making a video on tube about film making? That sounds like me making a video about dance - I'd never dare do a dance video for two reasons. My friends would wet themselves but seriously, it would be terrible!

You just seem unwilling for unable to appreciate that for a product to be good, all the ingredients need to be good. You won't spend any time or money getting better, just hoping that it will be great when the scope of a full length feature is immensely more difficult than anything you've done.

Documentaries ARE scripted, maybe not in the sense that everyone learns a script, but I've never been involved with one that didn't;t have a script of some kind. In a documentary, the VO, if there is one is scripted once the visuals have been seen and assembled. Any in or out of vision material is at the very least framework with key points.

I got very confused by this bit.

I just didn't think it was possible to form personal relationships with everyone I work with and that a lot of them will have to be professional especially if something were to happen if I had to replace people with other people I may not know well, which has happened before.

Why on earth do you think you need to know them well. When I work for a production company, I might have a cast, crew and creative team of perhaps 30-40. I will have worked with maybe 20+ who I have worked with before and put them on the re-contract list. Others will be contracted by people from the production companies production department - so I'll have a pile of people recommended by another production or company manager, people I trust - but I know nothing about them at all. In 17 years I have only fired one during a production and put maybe 10 on the do not re-contract list. Some were competent but socially inept, making them difficult to work with. People who were so own role centred, the sound, lights, acting could fall apart, but as long as the picture remained on the monitors and was nice and sharp they'd go home happy and totally unaware of the carnage everyone else suffered. Others would be technically useless but well qualified. Some would be just 'risky'. On the first day of production, people meet very often for the first time. Two hours later, rehearsals are under way. Everyone and everything is considered and judged. By the end of day two - everyone has formed relationships. Good and bad. Square pegs in round holes identified, and potential problems already imagined. Before the end of day two, I'll start to be approached by people on the quiet, pointing out that X hasn't a clue and often suggesting changes to prevent them becoming problems. By the end of day three, sadly, the non-team players are identified and everyone has workarounds so these weak ones don't get in the way. Sometimes, it will be the Director - they just don't work the way the actors expect and actors are always verging on paranoia. These directors have to be 'guided', advised and prevented from wrecking things. Often the directors who are just not up to it shouldn't be directing a production with the budget and scale of the one we're on, and are simply fish out of water. The good directors realise they are lacking and I quietly help and support them. Sadly, some are so awful that, nobody helps and supports them at all. The ones who bellow and yell. I'm working with one shortly who is rude, arrogant and quite nasty - but - he gets good results and makes money. It does mean that I need two different members of crew, because past issues make some people unable to work with the guy. Everyone behaves professionally, that's what we do - but it is difficult.

Inter-personal relationships cause grief. I have one fella I use quite often who has autism. He finds the social interaction difficult, but he's very diligent, and his built in blinkers mean he never hets distracted. Give him a job and it will get done well, with no distraction. For me that's a real boon. It does mean he is the worst person to give a role to that involves general safety. He's totally unable to focus on his job but keep an eye out for unexpected issues. I remember well him ready to lower a very heavy projection screen. It had to start to decend on a music cue, and hit a mark exactly on a beat - the cameras then went live . 3 seconds from no screen to live screen. He had a couple of rehearsals and got it. First time with the audience, I spotted one of the wardrobe people standing exactly where the screen was going to drop. I ran, something I don't do and rugby tackled her. She looked at me angrily and then the screen went thud and landed on the floor right where she'd been. Our friend was 100% immersed in the cue - he didn't register the person standing on the mark, because they weren't there in rehearsal.

It's vital to be able to work with people, but often even after 10 weeks, I still struggle with the names of some people. They all know mine - but I have no memory of them, but I never would dream of letting them know.

Directors have to be people persons to get the best out of them. Insular loners make terrible directors.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

I guess I would just rather make the movie when a lot of advice is don't do it, do these other things instead, instead of finding a way to do it. I feel the focus should be on how to get the movie made well, rather than not make it all and just do something different.

Unless it's bad of me to think that way?

This doesn't make sense. Who do you think is more objective you or outside observers? If most if not all are not encouraging you to make this movie there must be a reason.

I feel most of your decision making is flawed and done for the wrong reasons. I get the feeling you couldn't get hired working on other movies so you're are making your own to get around that. You are self appointing yourself into positions you aren't qualified for. It's one thing if you didn't have the credentials to be hired as a director but you had the aptitude. It would make sense to create a few really good shorts to prove you can direct. Instead you've had the opposite result, which has shown you aren't good at the primary responsibilities of a director. So instead of acknowledging that, you are yet again trying to get around that by hiring a co-director.

As long as you are not honest with yourself about your abilities you will continue in this endless loop of getting yourself in over your head and asking for advice.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh it was just said before that it's hard to get people to work very a very low pay without having personal relationships. So I was just responding to that.

Perhaps the documentaries I worked on with other people were not scripted then. It's just for example in interviews people would say things that would contract other people and couldn't make a story out of what they said therefore. But maybe I should have what the people say be scripted as well if that would be better.

But I would like to stick to fiction if that's do-able. As for not being able to work on other movies, I have worked on other movies that people have asked me to before. I just wanted to make my own, unless that is too ambitious. And I didn't say anything about that I was making a video about dance. I also have experience of personal relationships causing problems. It was just pointed out earlier on this thread that I could use people to work with that I have personal relationships with, so I was responding to that post.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan. Your biggest snag is that you research, get information but are very, very bad at synthesis and analysis. You lack any ability to understand context. You get told specific things about questions, but use that narrow targeted response to produce a genetic rule. It is VERY annoying to tell you something to then have it repeated back at you later attached to a totally different scenario. Constantly you tell us you were told something and you were NOT! You attached it to something different. What said was that it is very difficult to get people for no/low pay unless they know you well and you can, in practice, twist their arm a little. Clearly you cannot ask strangers to work for low/no pay if you ha e no previous relationship, because they will correctly believe you are using them, and many will be insulted. You might get students wanting experience but they are worse than useless to you.

Over the years you have developed a ‘negative’ filter. Every time people say things you don’t agree with or don’t like, you just ignore it. You never even remotely ask yourself why they say it. Cherry picking comments is pointless.

The best advice for somebody putting even modest money into their project is don’t. It’s throwing it away. We almost feel guilty because our advice to stop gets ignored.

If there was a TV show about people making movies, you would not be out first week when you scored zero. You would be the one people voted through each week because it makes great TV, when you should have never even been on the show.

I fail to see even one positive that makes me think you have an ounce of film making ability, and surely by now you must have realised film making is simply not something you’re good at?

I totally forgot you totally misunderstood pencil and ink contracts. You do understand these are just status and don’t mean real contracts signed in pencil or pen? Pencil denoting an intention or willingness to sign but probably just that, opposed to a real contract agreed in full between two parties and legally binding. The way you tried to use the terms just made me realise you didn’t understand.

[Brian Drysdale]

Ryan, you seem to have difficulty following what people have written because you take things literally.

Reread Paul's message again and see why he's referring to dancing.

Usually documentaries have had a treatment and other scripting material written, You need this in order to get funding or a commission for the production. This evolves has the material is gathered, and the documentary goes into pre-production how much is involved will depend on the nature of the documentary. A historical documentary is different to a fly on the wall documentary.

Your documentary experience seems to be at the more basic end of the spectrum, without any real production structure,

[Ryan Elder]

Well I just want to make a feature film that is fiction, with actors and that is what I want to do. But instead of saying well it can't happen and listing all the reasons, I want to find a way to make it happen. Is that so wrong?

I feel that if personal relationships are not an option because I need more options of people to work with, and if trying to hire strangers is a problem because they will not be interested for low pay, then there must be other options and solutions rather than to have the mindset that it is not do-able and there will always be problems. I think there is always a way, unless that is bad thinking?

[Brian Drysdale]

These low budget features can be done, but the question is more if you personally currently have the skill set and other requirements that a director needs to make one of these productions.

It requires a large amount od self confidence and determination and you need to be aware that you will be taken to your personal limits. You need to be able to attract people to your film by using your interpersonal skills, because they're not doing it to pay the mortgage.. .

[Paul R Johnson]

In the entertainment business, things are different from in an ordinary company. The person in charge is rarely capable and effective in all the roles, but always has a good understanding of what the roles can do, even if not how - they just know what can be expected, requested and often demanded. This means the person at the helm is more like a ship Captain - they make sure the people they have under their control are the ones who have the right skills. However, they must also be very good at making decisions regarding the skills they don't have. They listen, often to detailed technical or artistic input, then make an immediate decision. They do NOT have to know the people individually, but know their discipline.

Let's use a wardrobe example. They see costume glint in the lights and discover it's a zip. A zip in a period costume. They do NOT tell the wardrobe person they want the zip removing and replacing with a brown one that will match the fabric, or tell them they want 22 buttons and button holes sewing ready for the 2pm session. They just say fix it, knowing the wardrobe people will choose the most appropriate solution. They don't need to even know the wardrobe persons name - and some might just yell "Wardrobe" and a person comes scuttling across the set. They point and say "Get rid of that shiny zip - what idiot thought a shiny zip should be in a peasants clothing from the 1800's???"

If you have arm twisted your wardrobe person, being spoken to like this, and having no real world experience means they might just burst into tears for being unappreciated or worse, have a tantrum and walk out.

Remember a few months back, everyone berating Tom Cruise for yelling at a crew member for being lax with covid protection - and how the general public thought his behaviour outrageous. My view was that they should have done what they were told. Nobody likes being yelled at, but in the professional world, anyone upset by words would be pretty useless to have on a team - it's not bullying and it's not unusual. It's caused by pressure - pressure on everyone, and for some who don't care about standards, it's deserved.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen was a great maxim, but nowadays it's "if you can't stand the heat, we'll install aircon, get you some breathable fabric workwear, and introduce relief breaks every 20 minutes".

We're not actually saying it can't be done Ryan, but we are suggesting that it might be difficult for you, based on our experience of how you do things.

Your rule book gathering, inability to read people, and your lack of people skills and self-confidence make us draw that conclusion.

We KNOW you want to make a feature, but that is currently unlikely at your current level of skill - let alone the local skill base.

Look at your murder movie where your casting was terrible. Some of those actors were totally unbelievable - can you see that? Their inclusion spoiled the result. You didn't audition them, they were just allocated roles and they didn't fit the script. If you were making a movie called land of the giants, and all your actors were 5' 8" and under would you see the problem, or believe that low camera angles would sort it because you had read and been told that low angles looking up make people look taller?

The most fun low budget production I was involved with when starting out was a 16mm film - 20 minutes running time about a WW1 flying ace, and we built as a small team a biplane in the studio, made holes in it and set it on fire. One attempt at getting it right, and it was all sorted in the planning. We all got given a role we were comfy with. My role, of all things was pyros - so my very first outing with pyro devices and there was no internet then, so no books, no google, just post and telephone calls. How did I get pyro? I wanted to be involved so much I lied. Lights (my thing at the time was being done by a much older more experienced guy - so rather than be an 'assistant' or gopher, I said I could do pyro, then had two weeks to learn everything I could. However - it was also my first time on a real movie set, and so much was different from theatre. Learn all that is learnable was my mantra.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

The most annoying thing about Ryan is, he asks for advice and acting like this is a profession production when in reality it's amateur vehicle to indulge his desires to do whatever he wants. So that's fine just do what you want and don't ask for advice. We don't have a vested interest in your success or failure. We don't care if you want to hire a co-director or micro manage every aspect of your movie.

[Paul R Johnson]

I think that's the real thing Pete - there is no audience for Ryan's movie.

The entire process is to grab ideas from dozens of very different movies and join them up together and then be surprised it doesn't work?

[Ryan Elder]

There was quite a few information since, but do respond to some of it, I actually did cast the short films, I just went with who showed up in the cast because I wanted to get footage in the can. I was aware that the acting was bad, I just don't like saying that in case actors read me say it. I was aware. But I still wanted to make short films. Unless I shouldn't have until I got good actors and therefore it's a waste to make one therefore until I do.

As for taking ideas from different movies, which movies did I copy from?

[Brian Drysdale]

Who's in the cast is key to a successful production, if the right people are in the right roles and there's a chemistry between the actors, the performances will sing. .

[Ryan Elder]

I talked to another filmmaker about how perhaps I shouldn't have make the short film because I didn't have actors that I thought would be good in the roles, or that I couldn't find a good DP for it, but she said to make it anyway, because you don't want to be known as a flake.

Is that true though that if you don't make the movie because the casting calls or finding a DP didn't go well, that you should try to make it anyway, so you are not seen as a flake? Or is it best not to and then start over again later, hoping other people will respond?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Realistically the only thing to be gained from this project is enjoyment. That's if you find scrabbling around trying to movie with no money fun. I can't see this winning film festival awards, any chance of commercial success, or even reel material demonstrating that you have talent as a director.