Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?

[Ryan Elder]

That's true, thanks. And this also why I wanted to hire someone who can budget the movie, with my budget better than I could if that's do-able.

[Brian Drysdale]

You could try that, but given the small amount, your proposing to speed money on something that won't be seen on screen.

Film budgets are standard forms, so you should be able to do that yourself.

You don't have the option to spend money to solve the difficulties, Low budget film making is about coming up with creative solutions.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. But if movies like Paranormal Activity, Primer, or El Mariachi can be shot on really low microbudgets, is it possible for me too then?

[Brian Drysdale]

Yes, it's possible.

The people who made those films knew what they were doing and had a broad skills set, plus the confidence to pull it off, from all the questions you keep asking, you obviously currently don't. That's the difference

Also, the post production costs (to get them ready for distribution) on some of these films was way higher than the headline production cost.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan, your knowledge of movies, producers, directors and low budget features is really deep and something you clearly like. I’ve never heard of most of the things you quote and have to go off and google. What I don’t quite get is your desire to make one yourself, when your finances, lifestyle and location mean it’s difficult. You talk about going to the big city like it’s a magical place where movies get made. Years ago now we asked what your existing skill level in the various disciplines was. I get the impression none have increased, apart from your reading and watching. Doing, you find hard, so ignore this area. Asking the same things continually is evidence you just don’t get it. We try to help but you don’t listen, ever. You rephrase the same questions in the vain hope we will say your idea will work, but we never do. You have problems you are simply refusing to even think about. Pick one. Your terrible actors. Given a choice of a terrible actor, or no actor, I’d go for no actor. It’s like one rotten piece of fruit that spreads to the healthy fruit. If you have two passable actors and an awful one, dump the awful one, and either replace them, or rewrite. Scripts are an issue, so rewrites you’ve shown are bad. It seems like over the years you are constantly trying to make movies without any positives and loads of negatives. You talk of going to the emerald city and finding cast and crew who will work for a stranger, for low rates and have to make a choice.take the money from a director/producer who is way, way out of his depth, or take on his roles to rescue the project. I suspect fee will do anything other than take the money.

Have you not noticed how your topics get answered by a very small group of people? We are on a quest to make you understand, and have endless patience, but the other excellent forum members avoid your topics as they always end the same. Their time invested is pointless. You carry on regardless, immune to suggestions and refusing to see sense. If you genuinely want our opinions and advice, maybe just sometimes it’s good to take it, not respond by your usual “yes, but I’ve been told before .......”

[Brian Drysdale]

I would add that knowing about films and making films are two different things.

Notice that the director was also the DP on the three films you mentioned and they also edited the film as well. They used locations in their area that they could access, they had a story that grew from the film maker's background and had a unique take on it, so that it stood out.

In simple terns, these weren't copy and pasted from other films.

Some used techniques that you may be uncomfortable with, such as the actors improvising, so that the dialogue sounds natural.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, thanks. Well I don't mean to come off like I am not taking advice, it's just a lot of the advice given to me had some problems that I wanted to work around so I just try to come up with my own ideas of how to work around them.

For example it's suggested that I need more money but if I cannot get it, I try to find ways around it. So it's not that I mean to not take advice, it's just that some of the advice presents more problems that I have to find another way around, that's all. I'm sorry if I didn't take the advice the right way. But a lot of the advice on here was good and I took some of the suggestions, such as some of the suggestions on music, or types of camera shots that were suggested to me before, that I incorporated into the storyboards. So I am grateful for all the advice and did take a lot of it I feel, but there was also a lot that I don't know how to take, because it presents it's own problems.

As for saying that I was told other things, before well I try to get advice from as many people in the business as possible and not just the filmmakers on here only, so I feel I have to weigh in all advice. I don't mean for it to be come as rejecting advice or that the people giving me advice are competing or anything, and I am sorry if I have given that impression.

But also, I feel that if I suggest my own ideas, that they are shut down in a very black and white way. I suggested what if I go to a different city where their are more options for example, and the response was is that I shouldn't think of it as a magical emerald city. Well I wasn't thinking of it that way, I was just suggesting an alternative to find more actors and crew. Why does an idea to solve a problem have to come across as magical or emerald? Isn't that a black and white way of looking at it?

As for the movies I suggested that were microbudget, I know that the director was their own DPs on those and their own editors. I can do the editing myself, but I will spend more money on getting a DP though.

And as for the the filmmaker interjecting their pasts into those stories, I can do that as well if that helps. But as for the dialogue sounding natural because it was improvised, in my experience, actors have asked to change lines and I let them, but then I am told the dialogue sounds unnatural. So is improvising bad therefore, at least based on my experience, from what I am told by others later?

[Brian Drysdale]

I don't think you're really facing up to reality.

You can't make a feature film jest using the advice on a forum, the main issue is the probably the person you see every day in the mirror. You can do things you mentioned, but you don't seem to think things through, but if you've got the confidence to do them, you will still do them.;

That;'s the nature of trying to male any feature film However, with these micro budget films just hiring people may not be a possibility, they will most likely be already known to you and are willing to work for next to nothing. To be successful, it will be a personal relationship, rather than professional one..

At the moment this feature film sounds rather like a bucket list project,

[Ryan Elder]

Oh sorry I don't mean to make it sound like a bucket list project. I do really want to make it. I just didn't think it was possible to form personal relationships with everyone I work with and that a lot of them will have to be professional especially if something were to happen if I had to replace people with other people I may not know well, which has happened before.

I was told I don't think of everything before though, which is why I try to ask for a lot of advice, so I can try to think of every possible thing I can. I feel I have learned a lot from working under other directors though, and try to learn as much that was as I can, even if I do not have money to make a lot of my own projects if I want to save that money from the feature. I am just trying to learn the most I can with what I have, but is that bad?

As for making it sound like a bucket list project, am I giving the wrong impression and I should express how much I really want to make it passionately, rather than stick to the technical more so, when I ask for advice?

Some of the filmmakers I worked under though, where able to hire people they didn't know before and it was professional relationships and their movies were very microbudget too though, so is it possible therefore? Not every relationship has to be professional though, I worked with two filmmakers before who said they were interested in helping me make it as I was thinking of having them be an AD and CD perhaps.

But if I shoot it in another city I'm not sure if they would want to come for that though. So it's a trade off, then. I go with the personal relationships where I am or I go another city to find more pools of talent to choose from. I guess I have to pick which trade off, and can't have my cake and eat it too?

[Brian Drysdale]

The odds are that the crews are making these micro budget films for experience, rather than the money. A professional DP could easily eat up a good percentage of your budget.

At the moment, given your skill levels and lack of confidence, making more shorts is the way to go. A short with good production values could easily cost as much as your feature film budget.

You rarely get your cake and eating it on films unless someone else is funding it.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well I guess I feel that if I use the money to make more shorts instead, that I will not be able to get the money for a feature later. So after making more shorts, that's it... No money to make a feature after. So that was the downside of making more shorts for me.

Also, you said before I had too too much confidence, that I was willing to do it, but now you say I have a lack of confidence. I was wondering, why it changed, just curious?

And yes I would have to find a DP that is good but still wanting experience and still starting out but good, but is that bad?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Ryan seem unable to comprehend and appreciate the complexity of making a movie. You also lack the ability to make sound decisions based on your limitations. When you lack the fundamental skill set needed to create movies then no amount of advice will help.

You are making it a binary choice between either shorts or a feature. When there is a third option, not making either. You keep discarding my advice to do something simple like a Youtube movie channel, vlog, or behind the scenes docs. These types of film making can be done by yourself with little to no budget. The one thing you do more than anything else is talk about movies instead of actually making them. What is the point of fighting this? Find something that matches that. Do it for our sake so we don't have to read these type of threads.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh well I am currently making a youtube video on filmmaking itself with another person, but I want to do both. But I am much more interested in doing fiction though, and would rather do that, than documentary or vlog work.

I have done documentary projects with others in the past and I found those much more difficult to make compared to something that is scripted. I would prefer scripted fiction, that's all.

I guess I would just rather make the movie when a lot of advice is don't do it, do these other things instead, instead of finding a way to do it. I feel the focus should be on how to get the movie made well, rather than not make it all and just do something different.

Unless it's bad of me to think that way?

[Brian Drysdale]

I don't think anyone said you'd too much confidence, more that you were having difficulties not seeing issues that were in your film. It's easy to be blind to things because you're not seeing the film the same way as a member of the audience.

The fact that you often end your messages with a question implies a lack of confidence.

Selecting a DP is like picking an actor, they have to be right for a particular project. You can only do following conversations with a number of DPs.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. The reason why I ask questions is because I like the advice and want to do the best and don't want to to do anything incorrectly, so that is why I keep asking more. I guess the reason why I have trouble seeing issues in past projects is because if I see them in other movies, I wonder, well why is it bad that I did if it's been done in other movies, or I was told to accept and embrace the microbudget and if the cinematography and locations are not that cinematic looking, just embrace it, and go with it.

Unless embracing such things is bad and I am in denial of the issues therefore, and should not embrace subpar cinematography and locations as a possible blessing in disguise.