Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?

[Greg Miller]

I can't believe these discussions are still going on.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

I can't believe these discussions are still going on.

It's like the movie Groundhog Day except there's no happy ending it continues on forever [hits my alarm clock]

[Brian Drysdale]

The number you audition will depend on how fortunate you are with the people who apply. On one very low budget film, which was a freebee job, I was extremely lucky with my small number of applicants. One was a former professional wrester and another was a professional actor who was recovering from mental issues. The latter's career went on an upward curve and he worked on major TV dramas.

With non actors you may have to keep going. We auditioned about 100 children for a part in one short film.

Even so, shooting scenes at the speed you're doing won't give these actors a chance to give a performance. With non actors there can be weeks of workshops,getting them prepared, especially with young people.

This is all old ground, you just can't keep asking the same questions over and over in the hope of hearing a different answer.

[Paul R Johnson]

What intrigues me is the slow/no progress Ryan makes. Just when he gets to decision time, he has a think, and then revisits every step in his decision making/avoiding process.

I don't even remember the projects I did last year. My accountant often asks me what a charge was for and often I have no memory of it at all and have to go and search the records - I find it was a random parking charge to put the van in a place to shoot from. I have two projects put on hold when Covid started, and I don't waste brain power doing any planning for these until they appear again. Even projects in the dirty for July - are not worth planning properly for as they struggle for commissioning and contracts.In Ryan's world I wonder if the people who said they would take part over two years ago, even remember saying they'd do it?

Ryan also unexpectedly answered a few questions - that's a first - he realises he might not be the best person for some roles, and is considering giving the project to somebody who can get on with it. This is a seismic change. He's starting to consider best person for each role, even if it's not him, and perhaps feel comfier knowing he'll get a better end product?

[Ryan Elder]

Sorry I don't mean to come off as repetitive, it's just if I can't get a lot of actors to audition and I cannot get a lot of shoot time in because of location schedules, and actors work schedules in their day jobs, I am just trying to make the options I have work better, if there are not many new options. I figure maybe there is something I am missing.

I could do more rehearsals as suggested, and do them in other locations of course, before the shoot days. It's just on a microbudget, I do not have time to get a lot of takes during shooting, and wonder if I can get good performances faster. But I can try with rehearsals. I can also not direct and just produce and edit only, but some tell me that not directing could lead me not having enough control of the production if that's true.

[Brian Drysdale]

A micrp budget doesn't imply that you've got extremely limited time. Not having enough money for enough takes was an issue when shooting on film, but that doesn't apply when shooting on a digital format.

I've worked on low budget dramas and, unless it's an extremely simple scene, they've all taken longer than you to shoot a scene.That also applies when you can only do a couple of takes because of the low shooting rato on film.

If you can't get the cast and crew for long enough, it's not going to be practical to shoot a feature film.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh it's not a digital vs. film issue, it's more of an issue of the locations not being open long enough, because not every location owner is able to give you a location for more than a day. Also for outdoor scenes, the whether and sun changes so time is limiting there, for those scenes. But it's not an issue of film cost of course. The cast and crew also have day jobs in the past that makes it tough, but it's hard to higher people who do not, cause it seems that everyone has a different job, and hard to find people where filmmaking and acting is their only job. But if I have more rehearsals before the shoot days, will that help then? But I meant microbudget as in having to hire people who have jobs I have to work around and location owners who's jobs I also have to work around.

[Brian Drysdale]

Major feature film have to work with the same issues regarding exteriors and the moving sun, It's a matter of planning your shot order and ensuring that you have reflectors for your fill light.

On a feature film, unless every scene is in a different location, it's not unusual to have a main location that you work in for a number of days. On a low budget film there are real advantages in having this.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. I could try to find a DP that would know more about making light match outdoors if that's do-able then. Some of the scenes take place in the same locations, some scenes have different ones.

Most location owners will not want me to shoot a whole movie there based on my experience, and a location owner for example is much more likely to say yes to a couple of days shoot compared a couple of weeks for example. But that's just my experience so far.

[Paul R Johnson]

It really is Groundhog Day ryan. Nothing has changed since our last discussion on this. If you want something but have a choice of doing it badly, or not doing it at all, why do you keep looking for a third solution. When you want something you offer the other party something in compensation. You have rewritten Queens lyrics. I want it all, I want it now, and I want it free?

[Brian Drysdale]

You usually need to pay a location fee if you wish to shoot for a more than a day, unless you've got a relative or friend who has a suitable building/location. You may be able negotiate a lower fee than a fully funded feature,however, you will also need production insurance to provide cover in case you burn the building down while filming.

Interior film locations can be to be unoccupied buildings or rental properties. People's homes do get used, but they tend to be be expensive if they're being used for longer periods. Your local film commission may have a list of locations. On funded productions, they'll pay a location fee for a day's filming.

This is what your budget is for.

Your experience seems to be you being thrown out of locations before you've even finished filming. This is unusual and may imply that the owner was unaware of what was involved and wanted to get rid of you.

This is how it was done on "Clerks": " He (Kevin Smith) was only allowed to film in the store at night while it was closed (from 10:30 pm to 5:30 am), hence the plot point of the shutters being closed due to a vandal having jammed gum in the padlocks. Because Smith was working at Quick Stop during the day and shooting the film at night, he frequently slept no more than an hour a day. By the end of the 21-day shoot, Smith was unable to stay awake while some of the most climactic scenes of the film were shot."

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, yes because of the budget I am using a lot to pay for other things, and would have limited time locations from people I know. I won't use the same locations I was thrown out of last time. I will try to be much more specific as to what is involved this time.

I haven't seen Clerks, but how was Smith able to pull good performances out of his actors on a limited shoot time, since it was said before that I need more shoot time in the locations. Did he do a lot more rehearsal therefore, or how did he do it? Or how was he able to get good lighting and cinematography and production design if he had to shoot fast, unless of course he just had a good crew, and therefore I should get one too...

[Brian Drysdale]

He was also shooting on film: 200 ASA double X using an Arriflex 16SR2 http://www.doc-cba.be/cbadoc2/images...SR2_manual.pdf

I would assume Smith either cast the right people or knew them and based the characters on the people he knew. A number of the cast went on to have a career in acting.

Smith knew the world of his story, which is different to your proposed film.

It was the DPs first feature film, he was 22 at the time and is now a member of the American Society of Cinematographers.

Clerks Official Trailer #1 - (1994) HD - YouTube

[Paul R Johnson]

unless of course he just had a good crew, and therefore I should get one too...

The penny may finally have dropped.

Ryan - poor cast, crew and director virtually guarantee a real poor product. You really cannot make a movie without talent in EVERY area.

Wanting to pull good performances from amateur actors is usually futile - they just cannot do it. I did a short Voice Over for an advert two days ago. I convinced the business owner that the £100 for a real actor was good value, rather than taking one of his managers and working for a day with them, and still no guarantee they will sound 'professional'. I knew an actor covid resting - which is like normal acting resting but with extra time without pay - We agreed £80 for the session based on the small number of words I sent him in an email. Probably 30 seconds screen time. He breezed in, put his script on the stand, and did me two versions in different accents - RP and regional. Both were perfect first take. Want it again? He asked. We replayed them and both agreed there was no point. I did him the bank transfer while we chatted, with the promise of an invoice from him by email. He was in the building fifteen minutes. That is how professional actors work. If I'd worked with the manager, he could only do the local accent, and struggled with the words in the script. This was only audio - can you imagine if he had to do it to camera?

Best thing was that my actor was also well educated and knew how to pronounce some of the names - some were very strange names from mythology - as the business sells figurines - scary things with swords or Medusa heads - that kind of thing.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. Well what I could do is maybe fly to another city and cast there, but then the shoot time is more limited if I do not live there of course. But maybe there will be more actors to choose from if I do.

What I could do is not go ahead with the production unless I feel really confident with the cast and crew. If I do not feel confident with the options from the casting and crew I find, then I can just not go ahead with until I do, if that's best?