10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? at DVinfo.net

Anil Dasari · January 19th, 2021, 06:58 PM

I bought an Atomos Ninja external recorder after reading a good deal on the internet, and watching a ton of YouTube videos that tell why 10-bit color depth is superior to 8-bit, how it makes a huge difference during color grading, etc. In theory, 10-bit gives each pixel the ability to pick from over 1 billion shades of color; compared to 16 million shades offered by 8-bit. This allows for smoother color gradations, avoids banding, etc. I got that part. But what about in reality? Does it make a noticeable difference?

I searched all over, for a comparison test where a test clip shot on 8-bit 4:2:0 internally, and another clip shot shot on 10-bit 4:2:2 external, and a side-by-side comparison of them both. I found none. Everybody explained why 10-bit is great, but offered no visual proof. At least nothing my eyes could see.

Any how, I made these comparison tests myself, after getting the Atomos Ninja. Same test subject - filmed on 8-bit 4:2:0 internal H.264 using EOS-R. Same subject filmed on 8-bit 4:2:2 ProRes external. Same subject on 10-bit 4:2:2 ProRes external. All are 4K. All are CLOG.

On the first look, there's one obvious difference. 8-bit 4:2:0 CLOG internal footage looked noticeably flatter than the external CLOG footage (both 8-bit and 10-bit). I don't know if that's a good thing or bad. I'd expect CLOG to be quite flat. Why is the external recorded footage less flat? Is the ProRes codec used by Atomos Ninja playing with the contrast levels before recording it? Internal 8-bit CLOG recording, when viewed through waveform monitor, showed more room for brightness and darkness adjustments before clipping - compared to the external recordings! Isn't it supposed to be the other way!?!

Other than that difference in flatness, I can't find anything else. 10-bit or 8-bit, both externally recorded clips didn't give me any extra 'leg room' while color grading - compared to 8-bit internal clip.

What more, 8-bit and 10-bit external recordings looked exactly the same untouched, as well as after applying the same grades. No matter how hard I tried to look (zooming in, for instance), I can't find a difference.

(An interesting side note: ProRes always stores everything in 10-bit. This means even the 8-bit 4:2:0 sent by the camera to Atomos Ninja gets stored as 10-bit 4:2:2)

The whole point in color grading is making the footage look better. If nobody can see how much more 'better' 10-bit is than 8-bit (no matter the theory behind it), what's the point with these external recorders? Is Atomos Nijna merely an overpriced monitor? (It does a good a job of that, for sure).

There may be rare cases where 10-bit might prove to be useful. But for most scenarios, I started to believe 10-bit isn't any better than 8-bit.

What am I missing? I'd be glad if somebody could prove me wrong and confirm that 10-bit is worth it.

Dave Baker · January 20th, 2021, 02:40 AM

I find 10-bit worth it.

One of my biggest hates in 8-bit is banding in clear blue sky if shooting in any kind of log or reasonably flat profile. It can often be disguised in post by dithering, but any colour correction has to be kept to a minimum. It doesn't matter if the footage is transcoded to a 10-bit codec first either. Now I shoot 10-bit 4:2:0 and have no such problems, with one proviso. It depends on which NLE is used as some still work in 8-bit and can induce banding, meaning I may as well have shot in 8-bit anyway.

Anil Dasari · January 20th, 2021, 01:40 PM

Hi Dave,

Thank you. I guess my tests didn't cover the right use cases, so to speak. I'll do some outdoor tests involving skies/sunsets and see.

Rainer Listing · January 20th, 2021, 03:40 PM

Hype or real? You decide. Just don't succumb to GAS or marketing hype or into the trap of thinking technology will improve your content. Only trust yourself. You bought a Ninja? Well, never mind, you could afford it, and it's a nice monitor.
(just wishing I could take my own advice)

Andrew Smith · January 21st, 2021, 03:04 AM

I hadn't noticed so much, but the gear that I now have is 10-bit or more/whatever and the image is super gorgeous one way or another.

I think the real difference is in how much you can manipulate the colour before you're running out of depth to work with and it then seems like you're working with mud. Same applies to audio though this isn't a huge issue these days with professional cameras.

Andrew

January 19th, 2021, 06:58 PM	#1
Anil Dasari Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 47	10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? I bought an Atomos Ninja external recorder after reading a good deal on the internet, and watching a ton of YouTube videos that tell why 10-bit color depth is superior to 8-bit, how it makes a huge difference during color grading, etc. In theory, 10-bit gives each pixel the ability to pick from over 1 billion shades of color; compared to 16 million shades offered by 8-bit. This allows for smoother color gradations, avoids banding, etc. I got that part. But what about in reality? Does it make a noticeable difference? I searched all over, for a comparison test where a test clip shot on 8-bit 4:2:0 internally, and another clip shot shot on 10-bit 4:2:2 external, and a side-by-side comparison of them both. I found none. Everybody explained why 10-bit is great, but offered no visual proof. At least nothing my eyes could see. Any how, I made these comparison tests myself, after getting the Atomos Ninja. Same test subject - filmed on 8-bit 4:2:0 internal H.264 using EOS-R. Same subject filmed on 8-bit 4:2:2 ProRes external. Same subject on 10-bit 4:2:2 ProRes external. All are 4K. All are CLOG. On the first look, there's one obvious difference. 8-bit 4:2:0 CLOG internal footage looked noticeably flatter than the external CLOG footage (both 8-bit and 10-bit). I don't know if that's a good thing or bad. I'd expect CLOG to be quite flat. Why is the external recorded footage less flat? Is the ProRes codec used by Atomos Ninja playing with the contrast levels before recording it? Internal 8-bit CLOG recording, when viewed through waveform monitor, showed more room for brightness and darkness adjustments before clipping - compared to the external recordings! Isn't it supposed to be the other way!?! Other than that difference in flatness, I can't find anything else. 10-bit or 8-bit, both externally recorded clips didn't give me any extra 'leg room' while color grading - compared to 8-bit internal clip. What more, 8-bit and 10-bit external recordings looked exactly the same untouched, as well as after applying the same grades. No matter how hard I tried to look (zooming in, for instance), I can't find a difference. (An interesting side note: ProRes always stores everything in 10-bit. This means even the 8-bit 4:2:0 sent by the camera to Atomos Ninja gets stored as 10-bit 4:2:2) The whole point in color grading is making the footage look better. If nobody can see how much more 'better' 10-bit is than 8-bit (no matter the theory behind it), what's the point with these external recorders? Is Atomos Nijna merely an overpriced monitor? (It does a good a job of that, for sure). There may be rare cases where 10-bit might prove to be useful. But for most scenarios, I started to believe 10-bit isn't any better than 8-bit. What am I missing? I'd be glad if somebody could prove me wrong and confirm that 10-bit is worth it.

January 20th, 2021, 02:40 AM	#2
Dave Baker Major Player Join Date: May 2014 Location: Brandon, England Posts: 459	Re: 10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? I find 10-bit worth it. One of my biggest hates in 8-bit is banding in clear blue sky if shooting in any kind of log or reasonably flat profile. It can often be disguised in post by dithering, but any colour correction has to be kept to a minimum. It doesn't matter if the footage is transcoded to a 10-bit codec first either. Now I shoot 10-bit 4:2:0 and have no such problems, with one proviso. It depends on which NLE is used as some still work in 8-bit and can induce banding, meaning I may as well have shot in 8-bit anyway.

January 20th, 2021, 01:40 PM	#3
Anil Dasari Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 47	Re: 10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? Hi Dave, Thank you. I guess my tests didn't cover the right use cases, so to speak. I'll do some outdoor tests involving skies/sunsets and see.

January 20th, 2021, 03:40 PM	#4
Rainer Listing Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Nowra, Australia Posts: 440	Re: 10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? Hype or real? You decide. Just don't succumb to GAS or marketing hype or into the trap of thinking technology will improve your content. Only trust yourself. You bought a Ninja? Well, never mind, you could afford it, and it's a nice monitor. (just wishing I could take my own advice) Last edited by Rainer Listing; January 20th, 2021 at 07:37 PM.

January 21st, 2021, 03:04 AM	#5
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,065	Re: 10-bit vs 8-bit: Hype or real? I hadn't noticed so much, but the gear that I now have is 10-bit or more/whatever and the image is super gorgeous one way or another. I think the real difference is in how much you can manipulate the colour before you're running out of depth to work with and it then seems like you're working with mud. Same applies to audio though this isn't a huge issue these days with professional cameras. Andrew