Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 01:23 AM

You personally have to put the time in. You need to use you imagination and personal skills in finding them, You could advertise, it's something that can take time, you have to be proactive and focused..

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 01:26 AM

Oh okay, sure. I have put out casting calls the past two years, but feel that not enough were showing up in order to choose from to cast a project effectively. I can keep trying and looking around. But I feel that has been the biggest reason why I haven't made shorts much is because of looking for more actors and a more DPs to choose from.

It's not that I don't want to, I just feel I need more help to pull it off.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 02:18 AM

So, why do you think a feature film is going to be easier?

Paul R Johnson · September 26th, 2020, 04:04 AM

I wonder if one problem that Ryan has never considered is who his audience is? He is making his movies for himself. His own likes and dislikes, and perhaps even style, completely overpower the needs of the audience. In the other topic, he warns us of the content before we have seen it. This is a problem because it is a HUGE reduction in potential viewing figures. If you work on the premise that genre may be the biggest operator in the filters, it's a cut of a cut of a cut, and then with the sexual content, we go above the 18 limit that nowadays is pointless in itself. So you have an adult product, with graphic scenes of blood and murder, plus sexual content - so who is left watching it? Certainly not people who know good movies it could be argued? Nobody criticises production techniques in porn, few music fans look at the continuity and framing in a Queen biopic, so fans opinions are based on a very narrow spectrum of people. Go the other way, to Disney and because the audience is huge and diverse, every element has to be perfect.

I rather liked the pyscho shower scene, brought up recently - the level of actual visual violence is amazingly low - my memory remembers very different things. Did I imagine what my memory remembers? I suspect that it's the Hitchcock way of doing things - to make you think you saw what you didn't.

Maybe your style and content prevents people wanting to be involved? If you made something in a different genre, maybe your casting would be easier and you'd not have to say yes to weak people simply because you are casting by quantity not quality.

Ask yourself how many people auditioned for the parts who you turned down.

One thing I have realised. The fella who did your talking head in the battle damaged souls thing - I had assumed he was a veteran, and it was a documentary. I did not realise he was an actor. I thought that short was that guess own idea which you shot, not that it was a movie with script and actors. I'm not sure if that's an indication of success or failure? Success really I think as you fooled me.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 06:37 AM

There are a number of extremely good films that have an 18 certificate, however, the audience does become smaller. How it affects the sales and distribution will depend on the genre, for example it's unlikely to have much impact on a horror film.

You can get away with a fair amount of sex and violence with a 15 cert. I'm not sure what certificate "Naked Attraction" on the UK Channel 4 would get, but it does have close shots of male and female genitals. BTW It's a dating show for those who don't know it..

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 08:09 AM

Ryan, I would be astounded if I hadn't read so many of your threads. You're complaining that you can't find enough actors to make a simple limited short. How are you going to find enough actors to make your huge masterpiece?

This is why people go to school. There is a pool of actors in the theatre department. There is a pool of musicians in the music department. There is a pool of crew in the technical theatre department. You meet smart, enthusiastic people and network with them, teams form, things get done. Meanwhile, in structured classes, you learn things from the ground up, in logical order, rather than trying to learn them at random by asking questions here.

Make a short PSA about the local SPCA. It can be serious, or maybe you can find some humorous point to it. Interview one person, who is on the staff there, and you won't need a casting call. The rest of your shots are animals, buildings, backgrounds. Meanwhile you will learn about camera angles, composition, lighting, sound, and editing.

Stop dealing with all these "disturbed mind" themes, crime, injuries, etc., which require good acting along with difficult and/or expensive effects. Make something short and positive. You will gain experience in the necessary skills, gain confidence, and build up a filmography, all at the same time. If you have a list of good films to your credit, people will be more inclined to work with you, even if it's for free.

By the way, what's the most important thing you learned from Jay Rose?

Pete Cofrancesco · September 26th, 2020, 08:41 AM

I have the distinct impression Ryan only wants to do what he wants. Someone said that they think that our criticism and advice has confused and made him unsure of his decisions. I don't think that's the case, in fact I think he ignores most everything we say and it has little to no impact on him. When he says "I've been told" it never refers to what we have told him, rather it's the group of people he collaborates with.

Case in point years ago people on a writing forum him told him he would have difficulty finding actors who would want to be involved in such content and audience who want to watch it. So he knows why he can't find actors and yet he brings it up on this forum like he has no idea what the trouble is.

His problems are due to his decisions and choices which he has no desire to change. He only wants the results to change.

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 08:54 AM

Someone defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. Ryan's never going to change and take our advice. Of course we keep responding to Ryan's posts, so maybe we're insane, too.

I honestly think Ryan's answer to my earlier question is "C." What he most wants to do is to talk about filmmaking.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 09:21 AM

Oh okay, I just gave the warning because I posted the short film on another side, and the other side said I should have given a warning so I thought I would do that here, if that was what I should do.

Ask for wanting to do the same things over again though, one of the things that was different is that I want to pay people cuz I thought I would get more actors and a more DPs to choose from. But other say I should still make zero budget shorts which haven't gotten me a lot of choices of people. So isn't that doing the same thing over again?.

If I'm doing too much of the same thing over again then I can try different things for casting, I'm just not sure what to do right now because of covid.

Pete Cofrancesco · September 26th, 2020, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

Someone defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. He's never going to change and take our advice. Of course we keep responding to Ryan's posts, so maybe we're insane, too.

I honestly think Ryan's answer to my earlier question is "C." What he most wants to do is to talk about filmmaking.

Actually I think he truly wants to make a movie, but only on his terms. This whole over planning, thinking, talking, is some sort of coping mechanism, to try to get around his inability to react and adapt to problems on set. I also believe because he has no budget he can talk and plan things to death without spending any money.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 09:23 AM

The pattern is for talking on forums, with the occasional film along the way.

Ryan is probably in the wrong location for casting and making a film as described. If you can't get the cast a film is dead in the water. The Coen brothers have had a number of films located in regions similar to where he lives. Some of them are pretty dark in places, but they don't have huge casts and many don't have big crashes. However, they are quirky and different, which is what you want for the festival circuit.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 09:27 AM

I can try to be more flexible on how I make the movie and not make it just how I want. It's just if I do that I fear I will make the same mistakes and it will just be a very flatly shot flatly acted movie. That was my fear of not having a lot of actors to choose from for example, if that's what you mean by being too unflexible.

well there is one script I wanted to do before a couple of years ago but I couldn't get enough actors to audition for it. I can try again..

But how can I attract more people without spending much money though since you said I should do zero budget scripts?

I just feel it will turn out to be bad again because I'm not hiring people and just going with whoever shows up because it's zero budget. so want to be making the same mistakes again if I do that?

Also, what do you think of the other short film I posted since I was told to post more shorts?

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 09:53 AM

Since getting enough actors is an issue where you live, it's pointless writing scripts that require a large cast. It's possible to have a feature film with a small cast.

https://moviebabble.com/2019/09/03/t...h-small-casts/

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 10:05 AM

Oh okay, it's just that it is difficult to write a feature length plot with only a few characters, because I keep needing to come up with new characters to bridge plot points. But I can try. In the past, it was more difficult to get actors to commit to larger parts, so I thought that if I wrote a script with more actors, then the parts will not be so large, and avaibility would be more flexible. For example, actors 1 and 2 are not available these days, but actors 3 and 4 are so we can do those scenes, in the mean time... If that makes sense?

I was just going by past experience, and having different actors means you can get some on certain days, while waiting for others.

Brian Drysdale · September 26th, 2020, 10:27 AM

With a feature film shooting like that with other actors probably won't work, unless you've got one location, so that something is fixed. Even so you still need them to commit, either for one week blocks, or at least one day every weekend.

You can be very flexible if you're only got one actor and locations that you can access at anytime, However, once you get more complex you can't have people dropping out at short notice.

I worked on a very low budget feature which had professional actors with a lot of downtime on a feature film, so it was shot back to back, with scenes being shot as the actors become available. Iy was difficult to keep track of everything as two actors would go off, while another one arrived, possibly to do a different scene. However, it was all one block. I worked on it because I knew the guys making it and it sort of sounded fun.

There wasn't endless planning, an old script was adapted and the whole thing was got up and going in less than two weeks.

September 26th, 2020, 01:23 AM	#121
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? You personally have to put the time in. You need to use you imagination and personal skills in finding them, You could advertise, it's something that can take time, you have to be proactive and focused..

September 26th, 2020, 01:26 AM	#122
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh okay, sure. I have put out casting calls the past two years, but feel that not enough were showing up in order to choose from to cast a project effectively. I can keep trying and looking around. But I feel that has been the biggest reason why I haven't made shorts much is because of looking for more actors and a more DPs to choose from. It's not that I don't want to, I just feel I need more help to pull it off.

September 26th, 2020, 02:18 AM	#123
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? So, why do you think a feature film is going to be easier?

September 26th, 2020, 04:04 AM	#124
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? I wonder if one problem that Ryan has never considered is who his audience is? He is making his movies for himself. His own likes and dislikes, and perhaps even style, completely overpower the needs of the audience. In the other topic, he warns us of the content before we have seen it. This is a problem because it is a HUGE reduction in potential viewing figures. If you work on the premise that genre may be the biggest operator in the filters, it's a cut of a cut of a cut, and then with the sexual content, we go above the 18 limit that nowadays is pointless in itself. So you have an adult product, with graphic scenes of blood and murder, plus sexual content - so who is left watching it? Certainly not people who know good movies it could be argued? Nobody criticises production techniques in porn, few music fans look at the continuity and framing in a Queen biopic, so fans opinions are based on a very narrow spectrum of people. Go the other way, to Disney and because the audience is huge and diverse, every element has to be perfect. I rather liked the pyscho shower scene, brought up recently - the level of actual visual violence is amazingly low - my memory remembers very different things. Did I imagine what my memory remembers? I suspect that it's the Hitchcock way of doing things - to make you think you saw what you didn't. Maybe your style and content prevents people wanting to be involved? If you made something in a different genre, maybe your casting would be easier and you'd not have to say yes to weak people simply because you are casting by quantity not quality. Ask yourself how many people auditioned for the parts who you turned down. One thing I have realised. The fella who did your talking head in the battle damaged souls thing - I had assumed he was a veteran, and it was a documentary. I did not realise he was an actor. I thought that short was that guess own idea which you shot, not that it was a movie with script and actors. I'm not sure if that's an indication of success or failure? Success really I think as you fooled me.

September 26th, 2020, 06:37 AM	#125
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? There are a number of extremely good films that have an 18 certificate, however, the audience does become smaller. How it affects the sales and distribution will depend on the genre, for example it's unlikely to have much impact on a horror film. You can get away with a fair amount of sex and violence with a 15 cert. I'm not sure what certificate "Naked Attraction" on the UK Channel 4 would get, but it does have close shots of male and female genitals. BTW It's a dating show for those who don't know it.. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; September 26th, 2020 at 09:03 AM.

September 26th, 2020, 08:09 AM	#126
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Ryan, I would be astounded if I hadn't read so many of your threads. You're complaining that you can't find enough actors to make a simple limited short. How are you going to find enough actors to make your huge masterpiece? This is why people go to school. There is a pool of actors in the theatre department. There is a pool of musicians in the music department. There is a pool of crew in the technical theatre department. You meet smart, enthusiastic people and network with them, teams form, things get done. Meanwhile, in structured classes, you learn things from the ground up, in logical order, rather than trying to learn them at random by asking questions here. Make a short PSA about the local SPCA. It can be serious, or maybe you can find some humorous point to it. Interview one person, who is on the staff there, and you won't need a casting call. The rest of your shots are animals, buildings, backgrounds. Meanwhile you will learn about camera angles, composition, lighting, sound, and editing. Stop dealing with all these "disturbed mind" themes, crime, injuries, etc., which require good acting along with difficult and/or expensive effects. Make something short and positive. You will gain experience in the necessary skills, gain confidence, and build up a filmography, all at the same time. If you have a list of good films to your credit, people will be more inclined to work with you, even if it's for free. By the way, what's the most important thing you learned from Jay Rose? Last edited by Greg Miller; September 26th, 2020 at 08:58 AM.

September 26th, 2020, 08:41 AM	#127
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? I have the distinct impression Ryan only wants to do what he wants. Someone said that they think that our criticism and advice has confused and made him unsure of his decisions. I don't think that's the case, in fact I think he ignores most everything we say and it has little to no impact on him. When he says "I've been told" it never refers to what we have told him, rather it's the group of people he collaborates with. Case in point years ago people on a writing forum him told him he would have difficulty finding actors who would want to be involved in such content and audience who want to watch it. So he knows why he can't find actors and yet he brings it up on this forum like he has no idea what the trouble is. His problems are due to his decisions and choices which he has no desire to change. He only wants the results to change.

September 26th, 2020, 08:54 AM	#128
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Someone defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. Ryan's never going to change and take our advice. Of course we keep responding to Ryan's posts, so maybe we're insane, too. I honestly think Ryan's answer to my earlier question is "C." What he most wants to do is to talk about filmmaking.

September 26th, 2020, 09:21 AM	#129
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh okay, I just gave the warning because I posted the short film on another side, and the other side said I should have given a warning so I thought I would do that here, if that was what I should do. Ask for wanting to do the same things over again though, one of the things that was different is that I want to pay people cuz I thought I would get more actors and a more DPs to choose from. But other say I should still make zero budget shorts which haven't gotten me a lot of choices of people. So isn't that doing the same thing over again?. If I'm doing too much of the same thing over again then I can try different things for casting, I'm just not sure what to do right now because of covid.

September 26th, 2020, 09:23 AM	#131
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? The pattern is for talking on forums, with the occasional film along the way. Ryan is probably in the wrong location for casting and making a film as described. If you can't get the cast a film is dead in the water. The Coen brothers have had a number of films located in regions similar to where he lives. Some of them are pretty dark in places, but they don't have huge casts and many don't have big crashes. However, they are quirky and different, which is what you want for the festival circuit.

September 26th, 2020, 09:27 AM	#132
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? I can try to be more flexible on how I make the movie and not make it just how I want. It's just if I do that I fear I will make the same mistakes and it will just be a very flatly shot flatly acted movie. That was my fear of not having a lot of actors to choose from for example, if that's what you mean by being too unflexible. well there is one script I wanted to do before a couple of years ago but I couldn't get enough actors to audition for it. I can try again.. But how can I attract more people without spending much money though since you said I should do zero budget scripts? I just feel it will turn out to be bad again because I'm not hiring people and just going with whoever shows up because it's zero budget. so want to be making the same mistakes again if I do that? Also, what do you think of the other short film I posted since I was told to post more shorts?

September 26th, 2020, 09:53 AM	#133
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Since getting enough actors is an issue where you live, it's pointless writing scripts that require a large cast. It's possible to have a feature film with a small cast. https://moviebabble.com/2019/09/03/t...h-small-casts/

September 26th, 2020, 10:05 AM	#134
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh okay, it's just that it is difficult to write a feature length plot with only a few characters, because I keep needing to come up with new characters to bridge plot points. But I can try. In the past, it was more difficult to get actors to commit to larger parts, so I thought that if I wrote a script with more actors, then the parts will not be so large, and avaibility would be more flexible. For example, actors 1 and 2 are not available these days, but actors 3 and 4 are so we can do those scenes, in the mean time... If that makes sense? I was just going by past experience, and having different actors means you can get some on certain days, while waiting for others.

September 26th, 2020, 10:27 AM	#135
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? With a feature film shooting like that with other actors probably won't work, unless you've got one location, so that something is fixed. Even so you still need them to commit, either for one week blocks, or at least one day every weekend. You can be very flexible if you're only got one actor and locations that you can access at anytime, However, once you get more complex you can't have people dropping out at short notice. I worked on a very low budget feature which had professional actors with a lot of downtime on a feature film, so it was shot back to back, with scenes being shot as the actors become available. Iy was difficult to keep track of everything as two actors would go off, while another one arrived, possibly to do a different scene. However, it was all one block. I worked on it because I knew the guys making it and it sort of sounded fun. There wasn't endless planning, an old script was adapted and the whole thing was got up and going in less than two weeks.