Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 06:34 PM

Aren't you asking us to critique your films? That tripod move (and the non-centered titles, and various details in between) are not what I'd consider adequate quality for a finished film. If that's OK with you, and you're proud to put your name on a film like that, then great. Otherwise, if you acknowledge that you're not capable of running the camera, then do not run the camera. Making excuses after the fact does not improve the quality of the film.

Besides, if you bought a tripod, and (I assume) it's your camera, don't you want to be able to use them well? If the PD is *not* available, and you are forced to step in, don't you want the shots to look professional? I thought you wanted to make a *great* film, not a mediocre one.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 06:36 PM

Yeah I wanted to make a great film of course, it just didn't end up turning out that way. Aside from the opening shot I did, and as far as camera movement goes, the DP did the rest of the camera movement. Is the camera movement better for the rest of it? And I rented the tripod just before shooting. I did some practice runs, but I should have done more. The tripod I know own, since the store owner sold me to because she was getting rid of it. But next time I will be sure to practice more if I have to step in, or just get a DP who hast the equipment than can do it too hopefully.

But what about the camera movement for the rest of it, since the only movement that was commented on, was the opening shot?

As for the moving being too dark, I feel that the movie is darker on youtube compared to on my original file, but can youtube darken a movie, once it's been uploaded? Also, I know I've been told to make zero budget ones with whoever I can find, but I thought that if I get better actors and a better DP, that would make a difference, so isn't it even worth trying? Why is trying something new, so bad?

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 06:52 PM

My point is that you should go out and start practicing tomorrow! If you don't, and you don't develop that skill, then if the DP suddenly calls in sick, you won't have the necessary skill to run the camera.

Do you have something to do tomorrow that's more important than developing a skill related to film making? Is it impossible for you to squeeze in one hour of practicing pan/tilt moves?

What about the difference in exposure between the "home" scenes and the office scene? Was the original footage that badly exposed? Or was that a color grading error?

C'mon Ryan, instead of making excuses, why not make an effort?????

What's the most important thing you learned from Jay Rose?

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 06:56 PM

Tomorrow I am editing another project I am working on for someone. I will have more time once that is finished.

Well usually when I make my own, I am recording sound and booming as well. So I have to do that job as well. So I can't be the DP if it's a scene that involves recording dialogue though, but I can when it comes to shots without recording sound during.

However, I don't have all the equipment to be camera operator. For example when it comes to the gimbal shots, I have leave that up to someone who has a gimbal. Unless I should by my own gimbal and practice with that too, as well as record the sound?

How much should I buy and own, as oppose to hiring others who are experts with it?

When you say the difference between the original footage and the office scene, dealing with exposure, this is why I want to hire a better DP, and use actual money to bring a better one in. Is that really so bad to do that? Other directors and producers spend money on proper ones, to get good cinematography, so why can't I? Why do I have to either be my own DP, or settle for someone willing to work for free, when I spend money on a better product. Is that so wrong?

I could learn cinematography to develop my skill but other directors leave it up to other DPs, so how do they do it? Who is Jay Rose? I googled the name, but do not know who that is.

But are you also suggesting that I should be my own DP on a regular basis and not use anyone else? Because a part of me was considering getting a gimbal since I find myself wanting one from time to time for certain shots. Or is a gimbal not worth buying, and I should just hire a gimbal operator?

When you say was the original footage was that badly exposed, or was it a color grading error, what is the error exactly? Is it too dark you are saying?

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 07:12 PM

After thinking about it, you are right, and I should practice the camera movement more on my own. However, I don't have a gimbal to practice the gimbal moves, or a dolly to practice the dolly moves. Should I buy them, or should I just rent or hire someone who has them? Or is it important to buy them and have them ready to go whenever?

Pete Cofrancesco · September 26th, 2020, 07:17 PM

Point out a few things that haven't been mentioned:

1. Many of the shots are out of focus. In fact I can clearly see your dlsr is set to auto focus when it should be set to manual. The scene at her home the camera is hunting between her and the background.

2. I can also spot that you must of done a green screen re shoot of the man at the desk. During the reverse angle he has been poorly keyed.

I'm not discouraging you from trying, but you have plenty to work on. If I were you I wouldn't be as self satisfied as you seem. You have yet to show us anything that would warrant you doing a feature film let alone anything with a substantial budget.

The only benefit of this piece is you got practice and could use it to learn what to improve on. Otherwise it demonstrates that you are below average of all aspects of film making. There is nothing special that I can see in particular when it comes to directing. I could over look all the technical flaws if there was something else to see.

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 07:36 PM

Ryan, you are trying to put words in my mouth (or ideas in my head). I didn't say anything about a gimbal or dolly. But if you have a tripod (hopefully with some sort of fluid head) and a camera, at least be able to use those adequately.

Also I never suggested that you be DP on all your projects. I said in case the DP calls in sick or there's an emergency, then you'd be better prepared to take over.

THIS is a good example of overthinking. I meant what I said. I did not mean what I didn't say. Why do you want to over-complicate things?

Look at the exposure yourself. Don't you think the "house" shots are darker than the office shots? Is the house supposed to be dark? Are you trying to convey a mood? Or is that just bad exposure?

You ask about hiring a DP. The point is that you did NOT hire a DP, so this film ended up with visual problems. Hell, if you really have any money (which I doubt, since you didn't even buy $10 handcuffs for the other project) hire a DP, hire a sound man so you don't have to do that, hire a good colorist, hire some better actors, and get a composer more to your liking. MEANWHILE we are talking about the film that you posted. You did NOT hire anyone, the results suffer, you asked for a critique, you are getting one

Stop making excuses.

When you googled Jay Rose, didn't you find any results that look even slightly relevant to what you're doing? I wonder whether you even bothered to use Google and look at the results.

Greg Smith · September 26th, 2020, 09:13 PM

Ryan!

"In the Mood for Wrath" has ... wait for it ... HANDCUFFS that show up in the home invasion scene toward the end. So you DO know where to find them!

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 09:46 PM

Yes I ended up reshooting that shot once I got some handcuffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

Ryan, you are trying to put words in my mouth (or ideas in my head). I didn't say anything about a gimbal or dolly. But if you have a tripod (hopefully with some sort of fluid head) and a camera, at least be able to use those adequately.

Also I never suggested that you be DP on all your projects. I said in case the DP calls in sick or there's an emergency, then you'd be better prepared to take over.

THIS is a good example of overthinking. I meant what I said. I did not mean what I didn't say. Why do you want to over-complicate things?

Look at the exposure yourself. Don't you think the "house" shots are darker than the office shots? Is the house supposed to be dark? Are you trying to convey a mood? Or is that just bad exposure?

You ask about hiring a DP. The point is that you did NOT hire a DP, so this film ended up with visual problems. Hell, if you really have any money (which I doubt, since you didn't even buy $10 handcuffs for the other project) hire a DP, hire a sound man so you don't have to do that, hire a good colorist, hire some better actors, and get a composer more to your liking. MEANWHILE we are talking about the film that you posted. You did NOT hire anyone, the results suffer, you asked for a critique, you are getting one

Stop making excuses.

When you googled Jay Rose, didn't you find any results that look even slightly relevant to what you're doing? I wonder whether you even bothered to use Google and look at the results.

Do you mean Jay Rose the hockey player?

You're right sorry for putting words in your mouth. I just wasn't sure what to expect if I am to learn the camera movement as well. But yes, I can learn the tripod and have practiced more with it since I got it.

And yes I did get a DP for this short is what I meant. The DP shot everything else besides the opening shot I did. As for why the office scene looks too different from the home scene, it was the DP that made that decision, but I am guessing it has to with that the lights in the home were suppose to be coming from lamp motivated sources, where as the office lights were ceiling flourescent sources. That is just my guess, but the DP decided that. Should I not have left that decision up to the DP?

For the house I was trying to convey a dark mood though, since the guy is suppose to be drugged and what follows after that. But did we go too dark with the lighting?

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 10:14 PM

When I said "hire a DP" I meant in the future, because you were asking whether you should hire one or be DP yourself.

As far as exposure differences, I think that somewhat depends on where you expect this to be watched. In a dark theatre, with recommended SMPTE screen brightness, it would probably be fine as it is. But as I said, in a well lighted room, on my laptop, it's hard for me to see what's happening in some of the darker areas. Other people might have a different opinion. I was just commenting on my own viewing experience. And if that's your intention, then so be it. Watching the film, with the intention of giving a critique, I certainly was aware of the difference.

And no, not Jay Rose the hockey player. Really, did you google it? Actually on Google? And you didn't find anything relevant to film, video, etc.?

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 10:21 PM

Oh you mean this Jay Rose:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Produc...Film_and_Video

As for the grading, when it comes to color grading I read that it's best to color grade with no lights on in the room, so the color grading can be more accurate, so I tend to do that when grading. Unless I shouldn't that?

So if the results suffered because I didn't hire anyone, this is why I thought I should spend more money on future projects, and hire a better DP and actors, but others say I should make zero budget shorts. But if I do that without hiring more experienced people, I feel the results will still suffer. I guess I just feel I will learn more, if I hire more experienced people for a project.

Greg Miller · September 26th, 2020, 10:47 PM

Yes, that's the Jay Rose I was thinking of. When I Google the name, he is the #5 result, so I can't imagine why you didn't find him earlier. (And sadly, I just checked his website tonight, and learned that Jay passed away this past spring.)

The reason I mentioned Jay relates to one of your past threads about audio. You had asked a technical question and didn't quite grok the answers you were getting. I suggested that you buy one of Jay's books and read it, because he was very good at explaining audio. You replied that yes, you would buy the book (and presumably read it). The fact that you now don't recognize the name leads me to suspect that you never bought the book and never read it.

I would like to think that you take some of our advice to heart. But I guess reading a book about audio, and learning the basics, is not on your priority list. Whereas I just bought a 1940 Harry Olson reprint last week. I will read it and learn something (even though the math is far over my head). C'est la vie.

I suggested making shorts for two reasons. First, you could just go out and do some very short shots e.g. people riding past on bicycles; that would let you master your pan/tilt tripod. (And later cut them together if you want to.) Second, if you do not *presently* have the budget for a big feature you could at least make some low- or no-budget shorts (with much simpler scripts, smaller cast, etc.), which would give you needed experience and confidence; then you be better prepared to shoot the feature when the time comes.

Ryan Elder · September 26th, 2020, 10:52 PM

Oh yes, I do have the book I just forgot it was written by Jay Rose. Sorry about that. Yes I will read it. Sorry I was reading two other filmmaking books and wanted to finish those first. But I will read it, yes, I promise. I do have it. It's not that I don't want to learn about reading audio, it's just I got to reading other books on directing then started doing projects for other people... But I will read it, I promise. Thanks again for the book recommendation.

I'm sorry to hear that about Jay Rose.

Speaking of the audio, what can I improve there then? I recorded all the production audio, and someone else did the post mixing.

Brian Drysdale · September 27th, 2020, 01:36 AM

Regarding the tripod, you shouldn't buy equipment just because it's going cheap. Buying a good fluid head because it's at a good price makes sense, purchasing only on the basis of the price doesn't.

A decent tripod is probably going to cost as much as than your current camera, if not more.

You should reshoot a shot unlit it's right, even though you probably liked the motorbike driving though in this particular case. The jerky camera moves broke the smooth flow required for the cut to the tilt up in the next shot to work.

The rest of the film is of variable quality. The acting reminds me of some of the old exploitation films of the 1970s and 80s.

Ryan Elder · September 27th, 2020, 01:44 AM

Oh okay thanks. I can look other places for other actors as well as practice more with the tripod, for if I have to step in, if the DP is not available. However, when it comes to movement, is the opening tripod shot the only bad movement, since none of the rest of the camera movement was commented on?

September 26th, 2020, 06:34 PM	#151
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Aren't you asking us to critique your films? That tripod move (and the non-centered titles, and various details in between) are not what I'd consider adequate quality for a finished film. If that's OK with you, and you're proud to put your name on a film like that, then great. Otherwise, if you acknowledge that you're not capable of running the camera, then do not run the camera. Making excuses after the fact does not improve the quality of the film. Besides, if you bought a tripod, and (I assume) it's your camera, don't you want to be able to use them well? If the PD is not available, and you are forced to step in, don't you want the shots to look professional? I thought you wanted to make a great film, not a mediocre one.

September 26th, 2020, 06:36 PM	#152
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Yeah I wanted to make a great film of course, it just didn't end up turning out that way. Aside from the opening shot I did, and as far as camera movement goes, the DP did the rest of the camera movement. Is the camera movement better for the rest of it? And I rented the tripod just before shooting. I did some practice runs, but I should have done more. The tripod I know own, since the store owner sold me to because she was getting rid of it. But next time I will be sure to practice more if I have to step in, or just get a DP who hast the equipment than can do it too hopefully. But what about the camera movement for the rest of it, since the only movement that was commented on, was the opening shot? As for the moving being too dark, I feel that the movie is darker on youtube compared to on my original file, but can youtube darken a movie, once it's been uploaded? Also, I know I've been told to make zero budget ones with whoever I can find, but I thought that if I get better actors and a better DP, that would make a difference, so isn't it even worth trying? Why is trying something new, so bad?

September 26th, 2020, 06:52 PM	#153
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? My point is that you should go out and start practicing tomorrow! If you don't, and you don't develop that skill, then if the DP suddenly calls in sick, you won't have the necessary skill to run the camera. Do you have something to do tomorrow that's more important than developing a skill related to film making? Is it impossible for you to squeeze in one hour of practicing pan/tilt moves? What about the difference in exposure between the "home" scenes and the office scene? Was the original footage that badly exposed? Or was that a color grading error? C'mon Ryan, instead of making excuses, why not make an effort????? What's the most important thing you learned from Jay Rose?

September 26th, 2020, 06:56 PM	#154
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Tomorrow I am editing another project I am working on for someone. I will have more time once that is finished. Well usually when I make my own, I am recording sound and booming as well. So I have to do that job as well. So I can't be the DP if it's a scene that involves recording dialogue though, but I can when it comes to shots without recording sound during. However, I don't have all the equipment to be camera operator. For example when it comes to the gimbal shots, I have leave that up to someone who has a gimbal. Unless I should by my own gimbal and practice with that too, as well as record the sound? How much should I buy and own, as oppose to hiring others who are experts with it? When you say the difference between the original footage and the office scene, dealing with exposure, this is why I want to hire a better DP, and use actual money to bring a better one in. Is that really so bad to do that? Other directors and producers spend money on proper ones, to get good cinematography, so why can't I? Why do I have to either be my own DP, or settle for someone willing to work for free, when I spend money on a better product. Is that so wrong? I could learn cinematography to develop my skill but other directors leave it up to other DPs, so how do they do it? Who is Jay Rose? I googled the name, but do not know who that is. But are you also suggesting that I should be my own DP on a regular basis and not use anyone else? Because a part of me was considering getting a gimbal since I find myself wanting one from time to time for certain shots. Or is a gimbal not worth buying, and I should just hire a gimbal operator? When you say was the original footage was that badly exposed, or was it a color grading error, what is the error exactly? Is it too dark you are saying?

September 26th, 2020, 07:12 PM	#155
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? After thinking about it, you are right, and I should practice the camera movement more on my own. However, I don't have a gimbal to practice the gimbal moves, or a dolly to practice the dolly moves. Should I buy them, or should I just rent or hire someone who has them? Or is it important to buy them and have them ready to go whenever?

September 26th, 2020, 07:17 PM	#156
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Point out a few things that haven't been mentioned: 1. Many of the shots are out of focus. In fact I can clearly see your dlsr is set to auto focus when it should be set to manual. The scene at her home the camera is hunting between her and the background. 2. I can also spot that you must of done a green screen re shoot of the man at the desk. During the reverse angle he has been poorly keyed. I'm not discouraging you from trying, but you have plenty to work on. If I were you I wouldn't be as self satisfied as you seem. You have yet to show us anything that would warrant you doing a feature film let alone anything with a substantial budget. The only benefit of this piece is you got practice and could use it to learn what to improve on. Otherwise it demonstrates that you are below average of all aspects of film making. There is nothing special that I can see in particular when it comes to directing. I could over look all the technical flaws if there was something else to see. Last edited by Pete Cofrancesco; September 26th, 2020 at 08:55 PM.

September 26th, 2020, 07:36 PM	#157
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Ryan, you are trying to put words in my mouth (or ideas in my head). I didn't say anything about a gimbal or dolly. But if you have a tripod (hopefully with some sort of fluid head) and a camera, at least be able to use those adequately. Also I never suggested that you be DP on all your projects. I said in case the DP calls in sick or there's an emergency, then you'd be better prepared to take over. THIS is a good example of overthinking. I meant what I said. I did not mean what I didn't say. Why do you want to over-complicate things? Look at the exposure yourself. Don't you think the "house" shots are darker than the office shots? Is the house supposed to be dark? Are you trying to convey a mood? Or is that just bad exposure? You ask about hiring a DP. The point is that you did NOT hire a DP, so this film ended up with visual problems. Hell, if you really have any money (which I doubt, since you didn't even buy $10 handcuffs for the other project) hire a DP, hire a sound man so you don't have to do that, hire a good colorist, hire some better actors, and get a composer more to your liking. MEANWHILE we are talking about the film that you posted. You did NOT hire anyone, the results suffer, you asked for a critique, you are getting one Stop making excuses. When you googled Jay Rose, didn't you find any results that look even slightly relevant to what you're doing? I wonder whether you even bothered to use Google and look at the results.

September 26th, 2020, 09:13 PM	#158
Greg Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 86	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Ryan! "In the Mood for Wrath" has ... wait for it ... HANDCUFFS that show up in the home invasion scene toward the end. So you DO know where to find them!

September 26th, 2020, 10:14 PM	#160
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? When I said "hire a DP" I meant in the future, because you were asking whether you should hire one or be DP yourself. As far as exposure differences, I think that somewhat depends on where you expect this to be watched. In a dark theatre, with recommended SMPTE screen brightness, it would probably be fine as it is. But as I said, in a well lighted room, on my laptop, it's hard for me to see what's happening in some of the darker areas. Other people might have a different opinion. I was just commenting on my own viewing experience. And if that's your intention, then so be it. Watching the film, with the intention of giving a critique, I certainly was aware of the difference. And no, not Jay Rose the hockey player. Really, did you google it? Actually on Google? And you didn't find anything relevant to film, video, etc.?

September 26th, 2020, 10:21 PM	#161
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh you mean this Jay Rose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Produc...Film_and_Video As for the grading, when it comes to color grading I read that it's best to color grade with no lights on in the room, so the color grading can be more accurate, so I tend to do that when grading. Unless I shouldn't that? So if the results suffered because I didn't hire anyone, this is why I thought I should spend more money on future projects, and hire a better DP and actors, but others say I should make zero budget shorts. But if I do that without hiring more experienced people, I feel the results will still suffer. I guess I just feel I will learn more, if I hire more experienced people for a project.

September 26th, 2020, 10:47 PM	#162
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Yes, that's the Jay Rose I was thinking of. When I Google the name, he is the #5 result, so I can't imagine why you didn't find him earlier. (And sadly, I just checked his website tonight, and learned that Jay passed away this past spring.) The reason I mentioned Jay relates to one of your past threads about audio. You had asked a technical question and didn't quite grok the answers you were getting. I suggested that you buy one of Jay's books and read it, because he was very good at explaining audio. You replied that yes, you would buy the book (and presumably read it). The fact that you now don't recognize the name leads me to suspect that you never bought the book and never read it. I would like to think that you take some of our advice to heart. But I guess reading a book about audio, and learning the basics, is not on your priority list. Whereas I just bought a 1940 Harry Olson reprint last week. I will read it and learn something (even though the math is far over my head). C'est la vie. I suggested making shorts for two reasons. First, you could just go out and do some very short shots e.g. people riding past on bicycles; that would let you master your pan/tilt tripod. (And later cut them together if you want to.) Second, if you do not presently have the budget for a big feature you could at least make some low- or no-budget shorts (with much simpler scripts, smaller cast, etc.), which would give you needed experience and confidence; then you be better prepared to shoot the feature when the time comes. Last edited by Greg Miller; September 27th, 2020 at 12:13 AM.

September 26th, 2020, 10:52 PM	#163
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh yes, I do have the book I just forgot it was written by Jay Rose. Sorry about that. Yes I will read it. Sorry I was reading two other filmmaking books and wanted to finish those first. But I will read it, yes, I promise. I do have it. It's not that I don't want to learn about reading audio, it's just I got to reading other books on directing then started doing projects for other people... But I will read it, I promise. Thanks again for the book recommendation. I'm sorry to hear that about Jay Rose. Speaking of the audio, what can I improve there then? I recorded all the production audio, and someone else did the post mixing.

September 27th, 2020, 01:36 AM	#164
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Regarding the tripod, you shouldn't buy equipment just because it's going cheap. Buying a good fluid head because it's at a good price makes sense, purchasing only on the basis of the price doesn't. A decent tripod is probably going to cost as much as than your current camera, if not more. You should reshoot a shot unlit it's right, even though you probably liked the motorbike driving though in this particular case. The jerky camera moves broke the smooth flow required for the cut to the tilt up in the next shot to work. The rest of the film is of variable quality. The acting reminds me of some of the old exploitation films of the 1970s and 80s.

September 27th, 2020, 01:44 AM	#165
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking? Oh okay thanks. I can look other places for other actors as well as practice more with the tripod, for if I have to step in, if the DP is not available. However, when it comes to movement, is the opening tripod shot the only bad movement, since none of the rest of the camera movement was commented on?