At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Well, maybe I'm old, or just old fashioned, but I find the entire plot described on the other forum - which incidentally is for SCRIPT WRITERS not people like us - distasteful in the extreme. I don't know why anyone would wish to make a movie like that, but knowing a person who was raped means I know just one thing.

I'm male. I have no understanding whatsoever of factors that would be important to the female viewer. I try to empathise, but I cannot. I suspect that few males could understand at all, but just sympathies on the periphery. Clearly, by the 7 pages of comments, it's clear Ryan has no comprehension whatsoever about the story matter he wishes to create. It cannot work. Half the viewing audience would be screaming at him.

We're in a new world of gender fluidity, and that's difficult enough to comprehend, but this movie idea is doomed because it's misunderstood by the writer, and misunderstood my 50% of the populace. It's hugely problematic, and potentially dangerous. On top of this - Ryan has issues reading people. He has issues understanding what they say, and simple responses frequently get misinterpreted or distorted. The constant request for "So what you are saying?" when it usually is NOT what we're saying means that the subject matter is too emotive and for many distasteful, to be strung together in this hamfisted manner.

Ryan - I urge you to drop this screenplay because it is bad. It will remain bad when edited, and will be viewed as bad by the audience.

What does gender fluidity have to do with this type of story though? Not every story has to be about that, does it?

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Given Ryan's work to date and the type of questions he repeatedly asks, this project appears well beyond his understanding of people and his current talents.

There are a number of good films that deal with rape and serial killers etc, some are pretty dark, but since Ryan seems to be more concerned about the superficial aspects it's unlikely to go beyond being a poor exploitation film. perhaps revealing more about Ryan himself than the the larger world.

Well I am also concerned about the story aspects as well, it's just this is a filmmaking forum more about the technology and techniques I thought, so I thought I would ask those kind of questions on here, unless that's not good...

But even so, most good movies that have good stories, the director never skimps on the superficial aspects, just because he/she believes in the script. It's not a director is going to say, this script is awesome, which means I can just skip over the superficial aspects. Don't those aspects matter too in the filmmaking process?

[Brian Drysdale]

Yes, but your script's concept seems to be misconceived because of your seeming lack of understanding, which does strongly come across in the script writer forum discussions. This is in spite of the other contributors giving interesting and detailed points on and around the subject.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

It’s funny to look back at that writing forum from years ago and see Ryan doing the same thing we have witnessed here, eliciting the same helpful advice, which in turn has no effect on him. He is still copy pasting ideas from movies, misunderstandings peoples comments... He’s a complete and utter hack who has a disturbing fascination with the subject of rape.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh it's not that I don't mean to take advice from others, it's just when suggestions are made, there are holes in the suggestions or problematic variables that I feel I need to discuss, otherwise it's hard to apply the suggestion if there is an unaddressed problem in it, that's all. It's not that I don't want to take the suggestions at all, it's just if I see a hole in the suggestion, I want to discuss it first, to try to make it work.

Is that bad of me to do so? Plus I don't think this is really true for everything though. I took a lot of suggestions from that site, and the script was improved a lot because of the suggestions. And I think that the advice on here has helped and improved my filmmaking perception a lot. So even though I cannot apply all the advice, because of certain variables here and there, I feel that a lot has helped me though still.

I have no strange fascination with rape it's just part of the story concept of the script.

[Brian Drysdale]

Can't you work these "holes" out on your own and the solutions? That's what writers do, they can spend days or even weeks working these things out, They don't spend days or weeks on a forum going around in circles, they make a decision and run with it, That's what a treatment is for.

Feeling your way around a dark pit, as I believe Robert McKee described it.

[Ryan Elder]

Sometimes I try, but I feel that I could use input from the suggestion maker as well, since they may know something about the 'hole' that I don't since it was their idea? I guess I feel maybe I missed something in the suggestion so I keep addressing those things.

As for it's what writers do, well I feel it's kind of more complicated than that, cause a lot of times, the suggestions from people will say that a character should do this instead of that, but if I do not know why the character has suddenly changed their behavior, I cannot fill the hole, if I do not know why the character is doing what they are doing anymore, just as an example.

Another thing I don't understand is, that when a suggestion is given to me, but that suggestion has a problem in it as well, than does that really make the suggestion better since you are just substituting one problem for another? Instead of trying to correct the original problem, you are just substituting it.

This is the part my brain does has trouble with when it comes to taking suggestions, as I do not understand why it's better to substitute one problem for another, as oppose to solving the original problem. Why is substituting better than attempting to solve?

[Brian Drysdale]

Perhaps you're not really a writer. You seem to regard suggestions as problems, it's up to you to know your character well enough to know what they might do. The character may even use two suggestions and combine them to create new possibilities, everything is fluid.

However, I get the impression that it's not what the character won't do, than you're limiting what they might do.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

The ultimate problem is you lack good judgement and don't understand what everyone else can clearly see. Even if we could convince you to follow our advice, you wouldn't understand why. So it wouldn't help you with the next problem. You need someone to help you with every decision you face. That's why it can't work.

The unanimous opinion of your premise is that it's implausible. Your solution is to execute a bad premise better?

[Paul R Johnson]

I've just done a job in Bristol - so that's 10 hours driving today, so I'm a bit grumpy, but seeing yet another pile of posts makes me sigh.

If I understands Ryan's posts properly, what he is saying is that when he asks a question, the answers have holes in them? What on earth does he expect - he feeds us the very basic questions we respond with general solutions. Of course we leave holes, we never have enough detail.

Gender fluidity - you have written a screenplay that is based on a male perception of what a woman feels. That's bad enough - but nowadays, gender is far better understood by the majority and your viewpoint is narrow and for more than 50% now, it's probably wrong. It's distasteful I'm afraid.

You have very poor grasp of empathy, and clearly don't demonstrate it yourself.

You really just lack courage. You ask questions and hope to get the response you have already decided to bolster your gut reaction. Trouble is we often don't support your decision we find it simply crazy!

I have to be honest now Ryan. The only people who respond to your posts are beginning to feel pretty unappreciated and we're getting fed up with your bizarre attitude and persistence and total unwillingness to listen or try our ideas.

Did you learn nothing from getting banned on that other forum? Did you consider why your behaviour and responses made them do it? We can see identical processes happening here!

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Perhaps you're not really a writer. You seem to regard suggestions as problems, it's up to you to know your character well enough to know what they might do. The character may even use two suggestions and combine them to create new possibilities, everything is fluid.

However, I get the impression that it's not what the character won't do, than you're limiting what they might do.

Oh okay I was told the opposite before and that the characters are too flexible when it comes to applying changes, and that I need to lock down their behavior and limit it more.

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

I've just done a job in Bristol - so that's 10 hours driving today, so I'm a bit grumpy, but seeing yet another pile of posts makes me sigh.

If I understands Ryan's posts properly, what he is saying is that when he asks a question, the answers have holes in them? What on earth does he expect - he feeds us the very basic questions we respond with general solutions. Of course we leave holes, we never have enough detail.

Gender fluidity - you have written a screenplay that is based on a male perception of what a woman feels. That's bad enough - but nowadays, gender is far better understood by the majority and your viewpoint is narrow and for more than 50% now, it's probably wrong. It's distasteful I'm afraid.

You have very poor grasp of empathy, and clearly don't demonstrate it yourself.

You really just lack courage. You ask questions and hope to get the response you have already decided to bolster your gut reaction. Trouble is we often don't support your decision we find it simply crazy!

I have to be honest now Ryan. The only people who respond to your posts are beginning to feel pretty unappreciated and we're getting fed up with your bizarre attitude and persistence and total unwillingness to listen or try our ideas.

Did you learn nothing from getting banned on that other forum? Did you consider why your behaviour and responses made them do it? We can see identical processes happening here!

Oh okay. I got a message saying I was banned cause when I posted some of the script on the site, they said they found the content offensive, and so I was banned. I did give a content warning of course.

When you say that my script is based on a male perception of what a woman feels, what is that perception then?

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

The ultimate problem is you lack good judgement and don't understand what everyone else can clearly see. Even if we could convince you to follow our advice, you wouldn't understand why. So it wouldn't help you with the next problem. You need someone to help you with every decision you face. That's why it can't work.

The unanimous opinion of your premise is that it's implausible. Your solution is to execute a bad premise better?

Well I didn't think it was a unanimous decision, cause some readers said the premise was fine and could work, if it was executed properly, and they said it's all about the execution.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well I didn't think it was a unanimous decision, cause some readers said the premise was fine and could work, if it was executed properly, and they said it's all about the execution.

Ryan I read through that thread today and the overwhelming opinion was negative. This is an example of you cherry picking what you want to hear. There were people making helpful suggestions but in no way did they endorse the premise. The way you characterize things is delusional and dishonest.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, but that was just on one site. I showed the script to several other people and got very different opinions from negative to positive, not just the one site. But I also rewrote several more drafts since I was on that site, and I think it's a lot more improved now than it was then from what I was told, as the opinions are more mixed now, as oppose to being a majority negative. And I did take a lot of the advice from that site, and applied it to the rewrites and it helped a lot.

But when you say the people made helpful suggestions but did not endorse the premise, even if they didn't endorse the premise, wouldn't the helpful suggestions still be helpful though? As for cherry picking what I want to hear, I told to take the constructive advice and apply that cause that will be more helpful, rather than follow all the negative advice. Is that true though, that I should pick the most constructive advice or is that cherry picking?

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay I was told the opposite before and that the characters are too flexible when it comes to applying changes, and that I need to lock down their behavior and limit it more..

As I said, you need to know your characters, you have to work within what they will do. It sounds like you really don't know them if you're applying changes that the character's won't do. A character can change as the story progresses, so that they're not the same as at the beginning.

[Ryan Elder]

Well I feel that I know the characters and know what they would do. But at the same time, some people say the character should do this instead in order to blend with the rest of the plot, so should I therefore try to change the character then to apply people's suggestions? I am trying to take people's advice and change the character's decisions based on what they say would be best, but how do I do that without changing the characters though?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

It's not just that the premise is implausible, it's incredibly offensive on so many levels. The fact it had to be repeatedly explained you, and you still defend it that you were able to find someone who didn't have a negative opinion...

It's not my job to convince you. If you write a terrible and offensive screenplay no one will want to be apart of it. Which I believe what has happened.