At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?

Paul R Johnson · March 14th, 2020, 03:37 PM

Next time somebody tells you something, stop. Consider the things this person has previously told you, and what their track record is at getting it right? So many of your friends and colleagues are either too nice, too random in their opinions, or possibly just winding you up. They tell you the most ridiculous things sometimes - why do you put any trust in what they say?

Pete Cofrancesco · March 14th, 2020, 03:53 PM

This is a thread from the writing forum from 4 years ago talking about this same screenplay which got him banned. Just read his ridiculous premise.

https://www.writingforums.org/thread...racter.147655/

Ryan Elder · March 14th, 2020, 04:37 PM

Oh okay, it's just that also, on here people tell me my gut reactions were wrong in the past though, so I thought those opinions count too, shouldn't I listen?

Brian Drysdale · March 14th, 2020, 04:53 PM

If the characters are taking you in a different direction to your intended themes, perhaps you should start thinking why this is the case and if there is an underlying issue with either your characters or your premise.

Writers commonly talk about following where their characters take them.

Having had a quick look at the writers forum, I'm left wondering if you really know these characters or even met people like them, if this is the case why should anyone believe the story you;re telling, especially if your own characters are taking you in another direction? That also raises the possibly that you don't really believe in your own story, maybe that's the real twist in all this.

Ryan Elder · March 14th, 2020, 05:02 PM

Oh well usually it's if I write in a fly by the seat of your pants sort of way, compared to building toward a pre-planned ending in advance.

Brian Drysdale · March 14th, 2020, 05:06 PM

That doesn't make any sense.

Ryan Elder · March 14th, 2020, 05:40 PM

Oh sorry, how doesn't it? If you already know the ending you will build towards in advance, then you are more certain that the characters will not make any decisions that contradict the theme, no?

Brian Drysdale · March 14th, 2020, 05:55 PM

If you are forcing them not to contradict your "theme" in a way that doesn't work, so that you have unbelievable characters, the whole thing will then appear 2 dimensional, with cardboard cut out characters.

Ryan Elder · March 14th, 2020, 05:59 PM

Oh yeah I don't want that either, but want to find a balance, where they are not card board cut out at all, but they do not contradict the themes either.

Brian Drysdale · March 14th, 2020, 06:19 PM

Based on your comments in the the writer's forum. I suspect you are basing your characters on people you see in movies, which isn't a promising start and appears you're on yet another copy and paste exercise.

Given your forum, messages you're no Ernest Lehman, so perhaps you should be considering that your premise doesn't work or you don't know the world of your characters enough to pull the audience into it, so that it does work.

Ryan Elder · March 14th, 2020, 06:26 PM

Oh okay, well I can to try to seduce the reader in more then, if that's best.

As to the comment that the premise is ridiculous, I was told this before by a couple of readers, but was also told by some that there is no such thing as a ridiculous premise, just a ridiculous execution. So as long as the execution is good, than the premise will work. Is this true?

But what if you pitch your script to be people and tel them the premise, and they will judge based on the premise, without reading the execution though, if it's the execution that makes a premise good?

Brian Drysdale · March 14th, 2020, 06:32 PM

Perhaps you should consider if your script is a ridiculous execution as these readers are saying that the premise is ridiculous?

Pete Cofrancesco · March 14th, 2020, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, well I can to try to seduce the reader in more then, if that's best.

As to the comment that the premise is ridiculous, I was told this before by a couple of readers, but was also told by some that there is no such thing as a ridiculous premise, just a ridiculous execution. So as long as the execution is good, than the premise will work. Is this true?

But what if you pitch your script to be people and tel them the premise, and they will judge based on the premise, without reading the execution though, if it's the execution that makes a premise good?

So how has the four years of trying to execute a ridiculous plot been going? I suppose your litany of questions here is your idea of perfecting your execution. Dear lord...

Paul R Johnson · March 15th, 2020, 01:43 AM

Well, maybe I'm old, or just old fashioned, but I find the entire plot described on the other forum - which incidentally is for SCRIPT WRITERS not people like us - distasteful in the extreme. I don't know why anyone would wish to make a movie like that, but knowing a person who was raped means I know just one thing.

I'm male. I have no understanding whatsoever of factors that would be important to the female viewer. I try to empathise, but I cannot. I suspect that few males could understand at all, but just sympathies on the periphery. Clearly, by the 7 pages of comments, it's clear Ryan has no comprehension whatsoever about the story matter he wishes to create. It cannot work. Half the viewing audience would be screaming at him.

We're in a new world of gender fluidity, and that's difficult enough to comprehend, but this movie idea is doomed because it's misunderstood by the writer, and misunderstood my 50% of the populace. It's hugely problematic, and potentially dangerous. On top of this - Ryan has issues reading people. He has issues understanding what they say, and simple responses frequently get misinterpreted or distorted. The constant request for "So what you are saying?" when it usually is NOT what we're saying means that the subject matter is too emotive and for many distasteful, to be strung together in this hamfisted manner.

Ryan - I urge you to drop this screenplay because it is bad. It will remain bad when edited, and will be viewed as bad by the audience.

Brian Drysdale · March 15th, 2020, 02:49 AM

Given Ryan's work to date and the type of questions he repeatedly asks, this project appears well beyond his understanding of people and his current talents.

There are a number of good films that deal with rape and serial killers etc, some are pretty dark, but since Ryan seems to be more concerned about the superficial aspects it's unlikely to go beyond being a poor exploitation film. perhaps revealing more about Ryan himself than the the larger world.

March 14th, 2020, 03:37 PM	#31
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Next time somebody tells you something, stop. Consider the things this person has previously told you, and what their track record is at getting it right? So many of your friends and colleagues are either too nice, too random in their opinions, or possibly just winding you up. They tell you the most ridiculous things sometimes - why do you put any trust in what they say?

March 14th, 2020, 03:53 PM	#32
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? This is a thread from the writing forum from 4 years ago talking about this same screenplay which got him banned. Just read his ridiculous premise. https://www.writingforums.org/thread...racter.147655/

March 14th, 2020, 04:37 PM	#33
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh okay, it's just that also, on here people tell me my gut reactions were wrong in the past though, so I thought those opinions count too, shouldn't I listen?

March 14th, 2020, 04:53 PM	#34
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? If the characters are taking you in a different direction to your intended themes, perhaps you should start thinking why this is the case and if there is an underlying issue with either your characters or your premise. Writers commonly talk about following where their characters take them. Having had a quick look at the writers forum, I'm left wondering if you really know these characters or even met people like them, if this is the case why should anyone believe the story you;re telling, especially if your own characters are taking you in another direction? That also raises the possibly that you don't really believe in your own story, maybe that's the real twist in all this.

March 14th, 2020, 05:02 PM	#35
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh well usually it's if I write in a fly by the seat of your pants sort of way, compared to building toward a pre-planned ending in advance.

March 14th, 2020, 05:06 PM	#36
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? That doesn't make any sense.

March 14th, 2020, 05:40 PM	#37
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh sorry, how doesn't it? If you already know the ending you will build towards in advance, then you are more certain that the characters will not make any decisions that contradict the theme, no?

March 14th, 2020, 05:55 PM	#38
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? If you are forcing them not to contradict your "theme" in a way that doesn't work, so that you have unbelievable characters, the whole thing will then appear 2 dimensional, with cardboard cut out characters.

March 14th, 2020, 05:59 PM	#39
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh yeah I don't want that either, but want to find a balance, where they are not card board cut out at all, but they do not contradict the themes either.

March 14th, 2020, 06:19 PM	#40
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Based on your comments in the the writer's forum. I suspect you are basing your characters on people you see in movies, which isn't a promising start and appears you're on yet another copy and paste exercise. Given your forum, messages you're no Ernest Lehman, so perhaps you should be considering that your premise doesn't work or you don't know the world of your characters enough to pull the audience into it, so that it does work.

March 14th, 2020, 06:26 PM	#41
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh okay, well I can to try to seduce the reader in more then, if that's best. As to the comment that the premise is ridiculous, I was told this before by a couple of readers, but was also told by some that there is no such thing as a ridiculous premise, just a ridiculous execution. So as long as the execution is good, than the premise will work. Is this true? But what if you pitch your script to be people and tel them the premise, and they will judge based on the premise, without reading the execution though, if it's the execution that makes a premise good?

March 14th, 2020, 06:32 PM	#42
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Perhaps you should consider if your script is a ridiculous execution as these readers are saying that the premise is ridiculous?

March 15th, 2020, 01:43 AM	#44
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Well, maybe I'm old, or just old fashioned, but I find the entire plot described on the other forum - which incidentally is for SCRIPT WRITERS not people like us - distasteful in the extreme. I don't know why anyone would wish to make a movie like that, but knowing a person who was raped means I know just one thing. I'm male. I have no understanding whatsoever of factors that would be important to the female viewer. I try to empathise, but I cannot. I suspect that few males could understand at all, but just sympathies on the periphery. Clearly, by the 7 pages of comments, it's clear Ryan has no comprehension whatsoever about the story matter he wishes to create. It cannot work. Half the viewing audience would be screaming at him. We're in a new world of gender fluidity, and that's difficult enough to comprehend, but this movie idea is doomed because it's misunderstood by the writer, and misunderstood my 50% of the populace. It's hugely problematic, and potentially dangerous. On top of this - Ryan has issues reading people. He has issues understanding what they say, and simple responses frequently get misinterpreted or distorted. The constant request for "So what you are saying?" when it usually is NOT what we're saying means that the subject matter is too emotive and for many distasteful, to be strung together in this hamfisted manner. Ryan - I urge you to drop this screenplay because it is bad. It will remain bad when edited, and will be viewed as bad by the audience.

March 15th, 2020, 02:49 AM	#45
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Given Ryan's work to date and the type of questions he repeatedly asks, this project appears well beyond his understanding of people and his current talents. There are a number of good films that deal with rape and serial killers etc, some are pretty dark, but since Ryan seems to be more concerned about the superficial aspects it's unlikely to go beyond being a poor exploitation film. perhaps revealing more about Ryan himself than the the larger world.