What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?

Brian Drysdale · February 18th, 2020, 02:33 AM

This depends on if you're using basically using the street lamps for lighting the background, which you can do these days. With "Dirty Harry" they were using 100 ASA film, which they possibly could force develop a stop to give 200ASA, so using street lighting for part of your lighting was more difficult. You could use the small number of fast lenses like the Angénieux f0.95 50mm, but the options were a lot more limited compared to today. However, "Dirty Harry" was shot with Panavision C series anamorphic lenses, which are T2.3 to T3, depending on the lens.

Yes, you can do it the same thing as in the park scene, but you'll need a generator. With today's more sensitive sensors, you may get away with 2k or 5k fresnel spots

With the BlackMagic, I would go for 2k lamps for the street and try to get mains tie ins at a building, allowing for the power limitations you have in N. American wall sockets,. You should get an electrician to do this, neither that or get a generator. This will allow you to either use the street lighting or just let that lighting drop off towards darkness, if just using close shots.

Ryan Elder · February 18th, 2020, 03:01 AM

Oh okay thanks. I can use more than the streetlight, I just don't think I could light a whole park I'm guessing. However, the problem with fast lenses, is since I am shooting a horror thriller type genre, with a chase and fight, through the park, I am going to want to have more than one actor in focus at a time, right? So would fast lenses be an option therefore? I was also hoping to shoot on telephoto lenses, to pan with the characters during and get much longer pan tracking on them, if that's possible as well, which also means probably not a fast lens, I am guessing, if I want a deeper DOF for the actors?

Brian Drysdale · February 18th, 2020, 03:08 AM

Longer focal length lenses are slower, so you need more light.

If you don't have the resources don't come up shooting plans that you can't do, that's where creativity comes in. The best ideas are often the result of overcoming restrictions or limitations..

Ryan Elder · February 18th, 2020, 03:22 AM

Okay thanks. I was wondering if the Dirty Harry method was creative for this type of shooting though, since those scenes do not light the entire scene, and a lot of the location is left dark? If that method will work for not wanting to use fast lenses?

Brian Drysdale · February 18th, 2020, 03:43 AM

Not Lighting the entire scene is the creative approach. The darkness shows Harry as being isolated in a place that he (and we) can't see what's around him; the unknown is more scary than the known.

Ryan Elder · February 19th, 2020, 12:07 AM

Okay thanks. I did a couple of tests at night with lights on my Canon T2i. The ISO starts to look bad when you go over 800, it seems, so at that ISO, I can put the aperture at 2.2 it can still look overall good, with lights at night. However, would a blackmagic have a high enough quality ISO, that I could open around maybe f5.6 at least or deeper?

Paul R Johnson · February 19th, 2020, 01:08 AM

What difference is that extra couple of stops doing for you? I suspect you'll need to try the camera to find this one out. I doubt the published spec will help in this case.

Ryan Elder · February 19th, 2020, 01:46 AM

You mean what different is 5.6 doing for me than 2.2? I just figure the deeper the DOF the better, and wonder if there is a camera with a higher ISO, where the DOF can be pushed more.

Brian Drysdale · February 19th, 2020, 02:26 AM

If you use a higher ISO you will get more noise in the shadows. I'm not sure why you want 5.6, although I do know a DP who used that stop with 400 ASA film,. However, I suspect it's because he was used to using 100ft candles as a lighting level, which gives f2,8 on 100 ASA film. If you want a deeper DOF and have limited funds, the Blackmagic pocket cinema camera may be worth checking out. How much noise is acceptable varies from person to person, so it's up to you to test this, There are reviews of the BlackMagic cameras online, so the information is out there, but it's up to you to decide if you can live with the noise.

A point to in mind with the "Dirty Harry" footage is that in the cinema you probably saw some detail in the shadows of the park scene, while in the YouTube it's black. YouTube videos are highly compressed, so shouldn't be used for comparing cameras/lighting other than in a very general sense. One high end has TIFF files for its camera and lighting tests, so that users can what is reality going on.

Ryan Elder · February 19th, 2020, 03:06 AM

Oh okay thanks. Well I was trying to ball park how much deep DOF I may need bare minimum, so f5.6 was a ball park. However, the Sony A7s II has a really good ISO, but do the blackmagic pocketcams have ISO that good? I shot a scene once for a project with the Sony A5s II at night on a lit street, at F11 and it still looked good with the ISO that high. But can you do that with a blackmagic pocketcam?

Brian Drysdale · February 19th, 2020, 03:28 AM

The pocket cinema camera won't be as sensitive, but it has a deeper DOF you're after that - it has a smaller sensor. It also has a more robust codec, it really depends on what you want to do in post and the funds you've got available.

Ryan Elder · February 19th, 2020, 03:31 AM

Yep that's true I like the smaller sensor. Is there a camera out there that has as good of ISO as the Sony A7s II, but with a cropped sensor size?

Brian Drysdale · February 19th, 2020, 03:45 AM

No, the physics would be against that. The Sony A7s II is probably more of a documentary camera, especially for productions that work at extremely low light levels at night, such some BBC documentaries about the universe or their "Sky at Night" programmes.

Paul R Johnson · February 19th, 2020, 04:48 AM

My current cameras for theatre work are my two JVC ⅓" chip 750s. I've used these types now for quite a few years, 100, 200 and not got the budget at the moment for the 800. Every review tells how awful these are at low light and how useless they are for stage work. I have never had issues with these at all, and just proves to me that specs on paper can hide true performance. With no dialled in gain, they hover around 4/5.6 but even in a very dim scene with the lens wide open they manage really well. On paper, the results ought to be very noisy.

See if any of the dealers will loan you one, or buy from somewhere who offers returns and try the BM out. It could be perfect for you.

Pete Cofrancesco · February 19th, 2020, 10:47 AM

In some ways a night scene is no different from any other, it needs to be properly lit and then most any modern camera will work.

February 18th, 2020, 02:33 AM	#121
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? This depends on if you're using basically using the street lamps for lighting the background, which you can do these days. With "Dirty Harry" they were using 100 ASA film, which they possibly could force develop a stop to give 200ASA, so using street lighting for part of your lighting was more difficult. You could use the small number of fast lenses like the Angénieux f0.95 50mm, but the options were a lot more limited compared to today. However, "Dirty Harry" was shot with Panavision C series anamorphic lenses, which are T2.3 to T3, depending on the lens. Yes, you can do it the same thing as in the park scene, but you'll need a generator. With today's more sensitive sensors, you may get away with 2k or 5k fresnel spots With the BlackMagic, I would go for 2k lamps for the street and try to get mains tie ins at a building, allowing for the power limitations you have in N. American wall sockets,. You should get an electrician to do this, neither that or get a generator. This will allow you to either use the street lighting or just let that lighting drop off towards darkness, if just using close shots.

February 18th, 2020, 03:01 AM	#122
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay thanks. I can use more than the streetlight, I just don't think I could light a whole park I'm guessing. However, the problem with fast lenses, is since I am shooting a horror thriller type genre, with a chase and fight, through the park, I am going to want to have more than one actor in focus at a time, right? So would fast lenses be an option therefore? I was also hoping to shoot on telephoto lenses, to pan with the characters during and get much longer pan tracking on them, if that's possible as well, which also means probably not a fast lens, I am guessing, if I want a deeper DOF for the actors?

February 18th, 2020, 03:08 AM	#123
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Longer focal length lenses are slower, so you need more light. If you don't have the resources don't come up shooting plans that you can't do, that's where creativity comes in. The best ideas are often the result of overcoming restrictions or limitations..

February 18th, 2020, 03:22 AM	#124
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Okay thanks. I was wondering if the Dirty Harry method was creative for this type of shooting though, since those scenes do not light the entire scene, and a lot of the location is left dark? If that method will work for not wanting to use fast lenses?

February 18th, 2020, 03:43 AM	#125
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Not Lighting the entire scene is the creative approach. The darkness shows Harry as being isolated in a place that he (and we) can't see what's around him; the unknown is more scary than the known.

February 19th, 2020, 12:07 AM	#126
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Okay thanks. I did a couple of tests at night with lights on my Canon T2i. The ISO starts to look bad when you go over 800, it seems, so at that ISO, I can put the aperture at 2.2 it can still look overall good, with lights at night. However, would a blackmagic have a high enough quality ISO, that I could open around maybe f5.6 at least or deeper? Last edited by Ryan Elder; February 19th, 2020 at 01:05 AM.

February 19th, 2020, 01:08 AM	#127
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? What difference is that extra couple of stops doing for you? I suspect you'll need to try the camera to find this one out. I doubt the published spec will help in this case.

February 19th, 2020, 01:46 AM	#128
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? You mean what different is 5.6 doing for me than 2.2? I just figure the deeper the DOF the better, and wonder if there is a camera with a higher ISO, where the DOF can be pushed more.

February 19th, 2020, 02:26 AM	#129
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? If you use a higher ISO you will get more noise in the shadows. I'm not sure why you want 5.6, although I do know a DP who used that stop with 400 ASA film,. However, I suspect it's because he was used to using 100ft candles as a lighting level, which gives f2,8 on 100 ASA film. If you want a deeper DOF and have limited funds, the Blackmagic pocket cinema camera may be worth checking out. How much noise is acceptable varies from person to person, so it's up to you to test this, There are reviews of the BlackMagic cameras online, so the information is out there, but it's up to you to decide if you can live with the noise. A point to in mind with the "Dirty Harry" footage is that in the cinema you probably saw some detail in the shadows of the park scene, while in the YouTube it's black. YouTube videos are highly compressed, so shouldn't be used for comparing cameras/lighting other than in a very general sense. One high end has TIFF files for its camera and lighting tests, so that users can what is reality going on.

February 19th, 2020, 03:06 AM	#130
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay thanks. Well I was trying to ball park how much deep DOF I may need bare minimum, so f5.6 was a ball park. However, the Sony A7s II has a really good ISO, but do the blackmagic pocketcams have ISO that good? I shot a scene once for a project with the Sony A5s II at night on a lit street, at F11 and it still looked good with the ISO that high. But can you do that with a blackmagic pocketcam?

February 19th, 2020, 03:28 AM	#131
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? The pocket cinema camera won't be as sensitive, but it has a deeper DOF you're after that - it has a smaller sensor. It also has a more robust codec, it really depends on what you want to do in post and the funds you've got available.

February 19th, 2020, 03:31 AM	#132
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Yep that's true I like the smaller sensor. Is there a camera out there that has as good of ISO as the Sony A7s II, but with a cropped sensor size?

February 19th, 2020, 03:45 AM	#133
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,154	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? No, the physics would be against that. The Sony A7s II is probably more of a documentary camera, especially for productions that work at extremely low light levels at night, such some BBC documentaries about the universe or their "Sky at Night" programmes.

February 19th, 2020, 04:48 AM	#134
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,049	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? My current cameras for theatre work are my two JVC ⅓" chip 750s. I've used these types now for quite a few years, 100, 200 and not got the budget at the moment for the 800. Every review tells how awful these are at low light and how useless they are for stage work. I have never had issues with these at all, and just proves to me that specs on paper can hide true performance. With no dialled in gain, they hover around 4/5.6 but even in a very dim scene with the lens wide open they manage really well. On paper, the results ought to be very noisy. See if any of the dealers will loan you one, or buy from somewhere who offers returns and try the BM out. It could be perfect for you.

February 19th, 2020, 10:47 AM	#135
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? In some ways a night scene is no different from any other, it needs to be properly lit and then most any modern camera will work.