How should I handle this co-director job?

Josh Bass · December 23rd, 2019, 06:49 PM

It's impossible to say what your issue was without knowing the details and how the shape of the room "forced" you to cross the line, but Charles Papert (who used to post on here) talked about how on Scrubs (which he worked on) they would often cheat the actors in coverage to keep their backgrounds from being an ugly wall or if they were too close to a corner etc.

The audience only knows what you show them, and you can get away with quite a lot of cheating (turn somebody 30 degrees, move them 3 feet from where they're really supposed to be, etc.). If it sells on camera, it's valid, so you can often reposition people in ways that look ridiculous if you know where they actually are compared to objects of background, but sells on camera because of compression/lens choice/depth of field. That's the way *I* would go about solving those kinds of problems.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 09:45 PM

Oh well basically the problem was, one guy had to be kicked through a door by another character, and we had to go from one room then resume shooting in the next room, on the other side of the door.

One room we were forced to shoot on one side of the room because of where the door was, and how the room was shaped. We could not shoot on the other side, cause there was no room. Then in the other room, we were forced to shoot on the other side, cause we needed more room.

You can't really cheat the actors if the rooms are not big enough to cheat in though, if that makes sense?

Josh Bass · December 23rd, 2019, 09:55 PM

There’s always a way. You could have had additional shots directly in line with the doorway, so youre not on either side of it, but centered. So the guy getting kicked comes straight toward the cam or the kicker moves straight away from cam as he kicks. These shots effectively neutralize screen direction and your next shot can be on either side of the line.

Same as using a moving cam to cross the line during a shot, and subsequent shots will now have opposite screen direction.

Or you reblock the action to avoid these issues in the first place, or any one of almost infinite solutions.

Just because you plan and storyboard doesnt mean you stick to it rigidly. the plan allows you to be prepared enough to improvise when needed and know what you can get away with because you know everything inside and out.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 10:03 PM

Yep that's true, it's just that I need more time to plan and cannot do it spur the moment while shooting. So should I test out every shot before hand, and the ones that don't work, then come back to the drawing board? Cause changing shots the day of shooting without having time to review and plan them better, is what causes things to be more wrong with those shots then.

Josh Bass · December 23rd, 2019, 10:38 PM

I would get good at thinking on your feet. That's part of being a director. PLans go to hell all the time.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 10:47 PM

Yeah I can try to do that better. But still want to limit the number of shots that are changed to be safe, and maybe should I still go through every shot and try to rehearse it to see if they work? Like for example, the last short film I did the storyboards were not changed and followed down to a T, and no one said anything about the 180 degree rule being broken as a result.

Brian Drysdale · December 24th, 2019, 02:53 AM

One simple way is around some issues is to place the camera on the line. In a fight that can mean that the character will fall towards the camera, which usually looks good and then you can place where you want for rest of the scene.

You do need to be able to think on your feet, there are reasons why, you may need to drop shots that you've storyboarded, e.g you haven't enough time to shoot the shots and you can't go back to the location. Not being able to this is a serous weakness for a director, if you can't do it, the DP will offer suggestions that you may be forced to take, because the assistant director will put you under serious pressure.

Note that the assistant director is the producer's representative on the set.

People don't always mention when you break the 180 degree rule, sometimes you can get away with it if you may have accidentally, in the action or camera placement, allowed a switch across the line. It's better if you do so knowingly and planned for it.

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2019, 03:47 AM

Ryan - sometimes you just have to have courage, and believe in yourself, and stop asking other people. After all, if their opinion counts more than yours, why are you the Director?

Some people have rules that are unbendable and rigid and MUST be followed. Others believe rules are just a framework and absolutes don't exist. I have some rules forced upon me that are ultra rigid. Union rules, for example. I must follow them - even if I disagree. The worst ones are clocks ticking and in the middle of something good, you know you may have to stop for a break, or other reason. You also know if this has to be to the minute, or a bit flexible so a 5 min over-run but a 30 minute extended break and acceptable compromise that won't cause grief. That shot that will look great, but perhaps break the visual rule? WILL it look so good it knocks the rule into the corner?

Ask yourself why these rules exist in the first time? What is it trying to prevent. When does breaking it not work. For me, it was football, where many years ago, one camera position was inaccessible so I found a better one on the other side of the pitch. Left to right suddenly reversed and it was horrible to watch. Grass is green, players run everywhere, but crossing that line wrecked it for the viewer, and of course me too in the edit. In other scenes if both participants are very clearly defined, it would work fine. Imagine two football players (real football, not that thing you do in the US you think is football) one in yellow one in green, and you've got a sequence of them close in, very fast, arms and legs thrashing wildly. You could intercut wrong way shots and it would look exciting, and maybe the subliminal jump you get would add to the action, not detract from it. You could do it with the Rocky style boxing movies, you could do it with the love scene dance in a soppy movie - because it works. In a period drama in a 'new' space that the viewer needs to assimilate, left becoming right will jar and annoy. All context driven stuff. Only a foolish director would train like, follow the storyboard tracks and ignore better shots that became obvious once shooting starts.

Pete Cofrancesco · December 24th, 2019, 07:29 AM

Classic Ryan thread. A couple pages in change to a completely different subject. Then re hash topics over and over... “Or but I thought, someone told me, that rule, maybe if I plan this out more...” Honestly it’s like mental quick sand. My head hurts just reading his posts.

Ryan Elder · December 24th, 2019, 11:10 AM

Okay thanks for the advice, and sorry for changing the subject, just got worried about everything.

Back on the subject, I am just worried that if I don't have a lot of control, it may turn back on me in a bad way, especially since I brought in other crew that I have worked with before so far, and they know me, but do not know this director, who is new to them. Not sure if that makes me look bad, if he seems to be making all the decisions, but maybe it's okay?

Paul R Johnson · December 24th, 2019, 11:15 AM

Every Director is a new sheet of paper, and you can never guess how they will work. From experience some are total pains in the bum, others who are willing to listen and then if your idea is better, they'll happily run with yours and take the credit, or pass on the blame.

I'd rather be the co-director of a great success and glean the praise from it, that the one in charge of a disaster.

The reviews of the new Cats movie - for example. Universally dreadful and so many seem like elementary direction errors that they tried to fix right up to distribution and release. All the people who worked on that movie will be thinking about how it works for or against their careers. As somebody doing lights or looking after grip - they'll not worry. The artistic folk? Not so sure?

Ryan Elder · December 24th, 2019, 11:29 AM

Yeah maybe it will be all good in the end... If he is making almost all the decisions then, should I just try to be in on as much input with him and be ready to go for anything, but just sit back and see what happens then?

Brian Drysdale · December 24th, 2019, 11:35 AM

In these relationships you just have to ensure that your end is covered by being proactive and play it by ear as the project progresses.

Ryan Elder · December 25th, 2019, 05:27 PM

Okay thanks, I can do that. Thanks.

Ryan Elder · January 16th, 2020, 08:59 PM

I have another question when it comes to co-directing. I didn't say anything before cause i felt the other director who is also the writer, perhaps gets to have final say over his script.

However, there are parts in the script when characters go through changes and make decisions that I don't buy at all, character wise. I feel like the characters sometimes make decisions that are in complete service of the plot. But does a co-director have any say in if the decisions should be changed?

December 23rd, 2019, 06:49 PM	#31
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? It's impossible to say what your issue was without knowing the details and how the shape of the room "forced" you to cross the line, but Charles Papert (who used to post on here) talked about how on Scrubs (which he worked on) they would often cheat the actors in coverage to keep their backgrounds from being an ugly wall or if they were too close to a corner etc. The audience only knows what you show them, and you can get away with quite a lot of cheating (turn somebody 30 degrees, move them 3 feet from where they're really supposed to be, etc.). If it sells on camera, it's valid, so you can often reposition people in ways that look ridiculous if you know where they actually are compared to objects of background, but sells on camera because of compression/lens choice/depth of field. That's the way I would go about solving those kinds of problems. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 23rd, 2019, 09:45 PM	#32
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Oh well basically the problem was, one guy had to be kicked through a door by another character, and we had to go from one room then resume shooting in the next room, on the other side of the door. One room we were forced to shoot on one side of the room because of where the door was, and how the room was shaped. We could not shoot on the other side, cause there was no room. Then in the other room, we were forced to shoot on the other side, cause we needed more room. You can't really cheat the actors if the rooms are not big enough to cheat in though, if that makes sense?

December 23rd, 2019, 09:55 PM	#33
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? There’s always a way. You could have had additional shots directly in line with the doorway, so youre not on either side of it, but centered. So the guy getting kicked comes straight toward the cam or the kicker moves straight away from cam as he kicks. These shots effectively neutralize screen direction and your next shot can be on either side of the line. Same as using a moving cam to cross the line during a shot, and subsequent shots will now have opposite screen direction. Or you reblock the action to avoid these issues in the first place, or any one of almost infinite solutions. Just because you plan and storyboard doesnt mean you stick to it rigidly. the plan allows you to be prepared enough to improvise when needed and know what you can get away with because you know everything inside and out. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 23rd, 2019, 10:03 PM	#34
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Yep that's true, it's just that I need more time to plan and cannot do it spur the moment while shooting. So should I test out every shot before hand, and the ones that don't work, then come back to the drawing board? Cause changing shots the day of shooting without having time to review and plan them better, is what causes things to be more wrong with those shots then.

December 23rd, 2019, 10:38 PM	#35
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? I would get good at thinking on your feet. That's part of being a director. PLans go to hell all the time. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 23rd, 2019, 10:47 PM	#36
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Yeah I can try to do that better. But still want to limit the number of shots that are changed to be safe, and maybe should I still go through every shot and try to rehearse it to see if they work? Like for example, the last short film I did the storyboards were not changed and followed down to a T, and no one said anything about the 180 degree rule being broken as a result. Last edited by Ryan Elder; December 23rd, 2019 at 11:31 PM.

December 24th, 2019, 02:53 AM	#37
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? One simple way is around some issues is to place the camera on the line. In a fight that can mean that the character will fall towards the camera, which usually looks good and then you can place where you want for rest of the scene. You do need to be able to think on your feet, there are reasons why, you may need to drop shots that you've storyboarded, e.g you haven't enough time to shoot the shots and you can't go back to the location. Not being able to this is a serous weakness for a director, if you can't do it, the DP will offer suggestions that you may be forced to take, because the assistant director will put you under serious pressure. Note that the assistant director is the producer's representative on the set. People don't always mention when you break the 180 degree rule, sometimes you can get away with it if you may have accidentally, in the action or camera placement, allowed a switch across the line. It's better if you do so knowingly and planned for it. The 180 Degree Rule in Film (and How to Break The Line) #180degreerule - YouTube Last edited by Brian Drysdale; December 24th, 2019 at 04:16 AM.

December 24th, 2019, 03:47 AM	#38
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Ryan - sometimes you just have to have courage, and believe in yourself, and stop asking other people. After all, if their opinion counts more than yours, why are you the Director? Some people have rules that are unbendable and rigid and MUST be followed. Others believe rules are just a framework and absolutes don't exist. I have some rules forced upon me that are ultra rigid. Union rules, for example. I must follow them - even if I disagree. The worst ones are clocks ticking and in the middle of something good, you know you may have to stop for a break, or other reason. You also know if this has to be to the minute, or a bit flexible so a 5 min over-run but a 30 minute extended break and acceptable compromise that won't cause grief. That shot that will look great, but perhaps break the visual rule? WILL it look so good it knocks the rule into the corner? Ask yourself why these rules exist in the first time? What is it trying to prevent. When does breaking it not work. For me, it was football, where many years ago, one camera position was inaccessible so I found a better one on the other side of the pitch. Left to right suddenly reversed and it was horrible to watch. Grass is green, players run everywhere, but crossing that line wrecked it for the viewer, and of course me too in the edit. In other scenes if both participants are very clearly defined, it would work fine. Imagine two football players (real football, not that thing you do in the US you think is football) one in yellow one in green, and you've got a sequence of them close in, very fast, arms and legs thrashing wildly. You could intercut wrong way shots and it would look exciting, and maybe the subliminal jump you get would add to the action, not detract from it. You could do it with the Rocky style boxing movies, you could do it with the love scene dance in a soppy movie - because it works. In a period drama in a 'new' space that the viewer needs to assimilate, left becoming right will jar and annoy. All context driven stuff. Only a foolish director would train like, follow the storyboard tracks and ignore better shots that became obvious once shooting starts.

December 24th, 2019, 07:29 AM	#39
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Classic Ryan thread. A couple pages in change to a completely different subject. Then re hash topics over and over... “Or but I thought, someone told me, that rule, maybe if I plan this out more...” Honestly it’s like mental quick sand. My head hurts just reading his posts.

December 24th, 2019, 11:10 AM	#40
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Okay thanks for the advice, and sorry for changing the subject, just got worried about everything. Back on the subject, I am just worried that if I don't have a lot of control, it may turn back on me in a bad way, especially since I brought in other crew that I have worked with before so far, and they know me, but do not know this director, who is new to them. Not sure if that makes me look bad, if he seems to be making all the decisions, but maybe it's okay?

December 24th, 2019, 11:15 AM	#41
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Every Director is a new sheet of paper, and you can never guess how they will work. From experience some are total pains in the bum, others who are willing to listen and then if your idea is better, they'll happily run with yours and take the credit, or pass on the blame. I'd rather be the co-director of a great success and glean the praise from it, that the one in charge of a disaster. The reviews of the new Cats movie - for example. Universally dreadful and so many seem like elementary direction errors that they tried to fix right up to distribution and release. All the people who worked on that movie will be thinking about how it works for or against their careers. As somebody doing lights or looking after grip - they'll not worry. The artistic folk? Not so sure?

December 24th, 2019, 11:29 AM	#42
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Yeah maybe it will be all good in the end... If he is making almost all the decisions then, should I just try to be in on as much input with him and be ready to go for anything, but just sit back and see what happens then?

December 24th, 2019, 11:35 AM	#43
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? In these relationships you just have to ensure that your end is covered by being proactive and play it by ear as the project progresses.

December 25th, 2019, 05:27 PM	#44
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Okay thanks, I can do that. Thanks.

January 16th, 2020, 08:59 PM	#45
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? I have another question when it comes to co-directing. I didn't say anything before cause i felt the other director who is also the writer, perhaps gets to have final say over his script. However, there are parts in the script when characters go through changes and make decisions that I don't buy at all, character wise. I feel like the characters sometimes make decisions that are in complete service of the plot. But does a co-director have any say in if the decisions should be changed?