Edit after edit after .......

[Paul R Johnson]

Not like me to start a topic, but I'll share this one and see what you folk do in these circumstances.

Fairly frequent client - one of my traditional ones who does orchestra and choirs. I shoot something for them, and the revisions go on and on. I build a few into the price, but, today, after about three months I start on a sampler - bits of the past few projects for them to send to festivals etc. Spent the morning editing it. Did exactly what was asked - like, can you cut from 3'10" to 4'04" then cut the first and second verses from the third one - that kind of thing. I'll never get the real rate for the job, but it usually works OK. I've done the cut, now they want the last one of the clips removing because it's less good than the others, It's 1.4Gb as an upload to dropbox so takes a while to render and upload.

I know lots of people specify a certain number of revisions, or a maximum time, but they've also asked me to go to France with them in the summer to record a concert abroad, and that's a big project, and if we're out of the EU by then, also a pain with carnets etc.

I'm sure lots of people do this kind of thing, so any tips on minimising the hassle. I don't want to upset them and I don't want to charge them loads of money - but there has to be a nice way to reduce the problem to manageable.

[Rainer Listing]

I can so relate. Often it's nothing to do with you, some sort of ego trip or politics or power play in the organisation. Same as when they try to demonstrate their expertise by specifying how to do your job 'We'll need a switcher between three 4K ...etc. And I'm sure you already know the answer. But anyway, get a contract in order before you do anything, be specific about item prices, fix your mistakes free, make sure it's their request for changes, charge what's fair (you're not a charity) realise that while nothing is finished everything passes and they'll move on and, finally, you might reluctantly have to tell them to look elsewhere. Make a selective recommendation for one of your competitors.

[Seth Bloombaum]

The way to manage this is to create a structure for reviews based on what you know of their needs and process, then ask for their ideas about that structure, incorporate their ideas, then ask for an agreement that that will be the standard for most work.

“Most” because, if they are a key client of yours, you do want to be flexible enough to meet their needs.

It might go like this: 3 cuts of each project in post, then, each cut after that would typically bill at (some number you think is reasonable based on experience). Maybe you want it to be 4 or 5 cuts of the material.

Then, you base your estimates or budgets on 3 cuts.

Your client must feel they are in control of overages. This is key. They need to understand that they are in control of costs beyond the original scope.

Clients want a lot. They want to be in control of the budget. They want to be in control of the schedule. They want to be in control of the quality. They want to have enough control at the end of the project that they can make you do what they want. This is normal. This is part of working with people.

Standards, specifications, and good agreements can help with assuring that you are there for their needs in the future. If they don’t feel that’s important, you shouldn’t either! A good client / service provider relationship is built on both of you succeeding.

Working until they’re sure they’ve gotten everything they can, then hoping they’ll recognize that you’ve put in extraordinary effort is just wishful thinking. You need respect, respect that your time has value. How will you get there?

[Christopher Young]

Usually with regular clients work I offer one set of changes after the final edit and then one set of revisions after those changes in case there was a misunderstanding on the changes. These are costed into my original quote. Anything beyond that it's normal hourly edit rate with a minimum of one hour. Also I am very firm on spelling mistakes. I tell them I DO NOT type anything out, not strictly true but... I tell them it's all copy and paste so if there is a spelling mistake that needs fixing it's their mistake and that's billable at hourly rate.

Understand your predicament as you don't want to burn a client that is offering you a reasonable amount of future work. I find that once the ground rules are firmly laid down clients get to know how much latitude there is in your good will:)

Good luck negotiating!

Chris Young

[Josh Bass]

Cant offer much myself as I only and occasionally really edit for one client, who I just bill whatever it takes to get there, hourly.

I work with another guy who does everything including edit for his clients. He told me once he allots, and tells them so, a certain number of hours (for instance 20) for post, and when theyre getting close to that he’ll say “we’re at 18 hours now, how do you want to proceed ?” Presumably thats with some pad for revision loops.

If I ever do quote an edit rate I would build in x number or hours for revisions and then it would be an hourly rate after that

Problem is...how much to build in? A revision could take ten minutes or ten hours based on what youre doing (fancy graphics? redoing an edit almost from scratch? swapping two shots around?). Its a tough one.

[Paul R Johnson]

Nice to not feel too lonely folks! Job done with one last review - turned out one of the sequences I edited contained copyright material they'd not cleared. The clearance is now done, but has added 45 seconds to the end for the huge number of credits - everyone and their dog gets a check, and it's one of those with one name repeated in dozens of roles! Still, my clients stuff is buried in the middle of it, so as it's at the end, people will no doubt just press stop!

I quite like the idea of including a limit to reviews or re-edits, but I think the real problem is that clients think that removing 3 seconds, takes ........... 3 seconds, not maybe an hour of human effort and processing time. Loading the project up, doing the edit, re-rendering then uploading. I was actually doing work on another of course on the other machine, but it's still time.

[Josh Bass]

Sometimes you have to gently explain how messing with three seconds can throw 15 things out of whack and requires a rerender hence taking an hour or whatever.

[Steven Digges]

Been there done that. Here is what I learned.

First, my number one priority is client satisfaction so I am pretty good about going the the extra mile. Occasionally that can be a problem but not to often. I work primarily in the corporate world with business professionals. That helps a lot. I have nothing but respect for wedding guys. Your world has far more headaches than mine. This may surprise you but when I am working with big companies on projects with budgets in the tens of thousands of dollars there is no contract. Never once have I ever uttered the words "That's not what the contract says". I wouldn't even if there was one. Don't get me wrong, there is always paperwork involved. It is usually in the form of my quote. There is a breakdown of costs (I don't make tens of thousands for myself) studio rental, crew, travel, equip etc. There is a timeline for pre production, acquisition, and postproduction. Then there is fee schedule. That's it. There is no legal jargon or clauses for threats about overages etc. I give them a bottom line total cost up front and stick to it. Then I deliver a high quality product on time. That simple.

I also don't want to sound like everything I do is a big budget gig. I do those but I do a lot of small productions too. The point is from a business point of view I handle them all the same.

So, does giving them a flat rate up front hurt me in post production revisions and redos? Sometimes but not very often. The post production time and effort are built into the flat rate. What I learned is that most people are reasonable. I also learned that they operate consistently the same way. A client that sends you back into the edit suite multiple times for unreasonable changes is going to do it on every gig.

To address Paul directly: You already know that is going to happen. It has already happened and they will do it again because it is the way they operate. You didn't like it but there is future work coming. Now you are armed with budget knowledge and there "style" of operation. And you set a precedent of what your willing to do. I get it, I have been in the sink hole. I would handle it this way. I would look at the future work knowing and believing that every gig is going to be high maintenance and costly for me. People don't change. They are not going to suddenly become low maintenance. With that in mind I would then consider if the future work is worth it? It very well may be. Or I may decide its not worth it and turn it down. Most clients are wonderful. A few will abuse you for everything they can get. I do not reenter abusive relationships.

I started by stating my very simple business model and that I offer a total cost up front. This is why I do that. I learned that the reason I have a ton of repeat clients and I have stayed in business for well over 20 years is NOT about my videos. There is nothing super special about my productions. Yes I consistently meet or exceed a professional standard for quality video productions. The quality of the work must stand up and be good or you will get nowhere. The real reason for long term success is the way I do business. I focus on building quality business relationships with my clients. I keep things simple and enjoyable for them. They like me and the way I do business. That is what keeps them coming back.

For example I never offer an hourly rate for anything. People hate that for several reasons. First, your holding their budget hostage. They need to know how much your going to cost them. If you say, I estimate post editing will be 20 hours so it will probably be $2,000.00 but I'm not sure and it might go over that. And you only get three changes so you will be billed $200.00 an hour after that. Chances are you just lost them.

If I think post is going to be 20 hours I bill $2,500.00 for it in my quote, period. And I don't mention hours at all. It is a flat rate fee and they can accept that as very reasonable. But no one wants to pay someone $200.00 an hour because they are not making that much and you look unreasonable and rich. And Paul was right, if they make a 3 second change they think it takes 3 seconds. You bill $200.00 for the hour and how much do you think they like you now?

I bend over backwards for every client. I make the changes and don't complain. I don't nickle and dime them. The vast majority of the time it has served me well. When I do run into the rare totally unreasonable person I choose to not work for them again. It is my choice.

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Paul R Johnson]

I like Steve's approach and might be able to take some of that for future work, although it's tricky with new clients who don't have a clue. I me doing a split job at the moment where we're doing lights, sound and staging, but not the video, and some mistakes yesterday will have no impact on us but major ones for the video people. We won't take a hit, but they will. For once it worked for us! We are doing the thing again tonight, they weren't, but now are because the client decided to suddenly start a dance show. Lights and sound kicked in, but the sound recorder for the video missed the start, as did their main camera because the solo shooter couldn't get around all his cameras in time. Crazy world we live in.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

You could bill separately for revisions at an hourly rate. All tradesmen (mechanic, plumber, electrician, etc) give estimates instead of fixed prices. I’d be curious if you sub contracted the editing out would they be ok including unlimited revisions in a flat rate?

It’s hard to break out of something that client has grown accustomed to. I like having clients sit with me for editing/revisions. When they see for themself how much time it takes they scale back their revisions when they know they’re being charged by the hour.

Good clients will understand if you explain to them why you need to charge hourly for revisions. Even if you give them a reduced rate they’ll think differently about revisions. Of course the client may realize they’re getting a good deal and the fixed price is better for them, so they have no insensitive to change that’s when you either have accept things as they are or let someone else handle the video.

[Paul Mailath]

had a client (opera concert) like that I found the best was was to let them sit with me (I know) but in this case it works. I can explain and they can see what's there "can we have wider angle there? - no as you can see we either have the closeup of the wide of the whole stage, your choice"

they feel involved and I can show them what works and doesn't and when they leave - they've signed off on the edit.

[Paul R Johnson]

The worst thing about this kind of project is that if you need just a few second of cover for a dodgy focus or end of a crash zoom, wide shots work wonderfully, but sometimes get rejected, because the only visible detail is the conductors arms and they notice you picked a cover clip that has non-sync arm movements! Two seconds of wide with a hardly visible conductor, and getting that synced is really tricky!