Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography?

Pete Cofrancesco · November 6th, 2019, 08:39 AM

Thanks for sharing.

Ryan Elder · November 10th, 2019, 12:24 PM

Oh, I also watched this tutorial on color grading. At 11:10 into the video, the colorist separates the skin tones from everything else in the picture:

So by isolating the skin tone, he is able to give everything else in the picture one color, in this case, a teal color.

So should I do something like that, if I have unwanted colors, is to isolate the skin tone, and then make the background all one color, to make everything blend more, like he's doing?

Brian Drysdale · November 10th, 2019, 01:39 PM

There are lots of tutorials on using Resolve, I suggest you use Google and search for them, rather than expecting people here do the work for you. Steven Hullfish has a book on Digital Colour Correction and some videos online.

Josh Bass · November 10th, 2019, 01:54 PM

I think he's asking more of an artistic question as opposed to a technical question.

I used color grading this way (controlling unwanted colors) on one of my recent projects, BUT, I am not trying to produce a professional film project to sell or distribute or use as calling card. It was a silly music video for my band. If I were you, I would, as everyone said, try to control my set better.

Please also note that this stuff is not as easy as this guy makes it look. Notice how even in the ungraded shot, except for his skin tones, it's almost monochromatic to begin with. The walls and environment, even his suit is basically black and white. In addition, he's/his skin is lit and pops out from the background. THAT's why this works so well. If we you were trying to get this look on some shot with green trees and red brick buildings and purple cars, you're going to have a much harder time.

So you STILL need the right set/wardrobe/lighting to make this stuff work or risk tedious rotoscoping unless you get really lucky.

Ryan Elder · November 10th, 2019, 02:30 PM

Okay thanks. I tried doing the grade myself before on a short film, but the skin did not isolate the best way and there was some definite noise for sure. Some of the objects in the background were a similar enough color to the skin and they stuck out like a sore thumb I thought as a result.

I am just trying to come up with more creative ways to control the color in the background on sets, where I cannot control the color, budget wise.

Paul R Johnson · November 10th, 2019, 03:01 PM

You've clearly got a very different idea of grading to me. I'm rather bad at it, but using it to change the colour of the set is a new one on me. Is that not more of an effect rather than a grade?

Brian Drysdale · November 10th, 2019, 03:03 PM

That book on colour correction goes into that type of stuff, however, it's a lot easier to use gels on your lights. There's a full range of colours available, check out the Rosco Laboratories and the Lee Filters web sites.

Ryan Elder · November 10th, 2019, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

You've clearly got a very different idea of grading to me. I'm rather bad at it, but using it to change the colour of the set is a new one on me. Is that not more of an effect rather than a grade?

Oh I'm not sure, I was just going by that tutorial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

That book on colour correction goes into that type of stuff, however, it's a lot easier to use gels on your lights. There's a full range of colours available, check out the Rosco Laboratories and the Lee Filters web sites.

Well I thought about that, but when I asked about that before, other filmmakers said it would be strange to light a certain color, rather than painting the walls. For example, let's say I wanted the wall to be blue instead of white. If I light it so that it's blue, I would then have to make sure that the lights on the actors, are brighter than the lights on the wall, which means even brighter lights, if that's okay?

But I was told by others not do that cause the walls being lit blue would look abnormal compared to paint, if that's true? Or at least that is what I was told before on here, in a past thread as well.

Josh Bass · November 10th, 2019, 03:23 PM

Yes, lit blue looks different than painted blue or grading for sure. Lit blue is going to literally look like you have blue lights on it. Sometimes that's what you want. Sometimes it isn't.

I think of grading as the more artistic side, bleach bypass look, sepia, teal and orange, etc. "color correction" is the problem fixing, shot to shot matching etc. to make it look neutral/"correct". So yes, you can significantly alter the image with grading and it is a valid approach...SOMETIMES.

Da Vinci and probably any other CC program wants contrast between the things you want to separate from each other (e.g. skin and background). That means color contrast as well as luminance. Either one of those being too similar to the areas of the image around it will cause problems when trying to separate like you want. It also wants a lack of contrast in areas you're trying to make look the same. If you want the background all one color, it needs to be fairly narrow in its color range to begin with, same with skin tones. You can keep applying qualifiers when the differences are too great for one to handle and have them overlap but sometimes it doesn't work well and gets noisy.

I messed with all this on the aforementioned music video and that was my experience. Of course you can mask/power window to isolate, but then you are looking at, again, rotoscoping or at least doing some keyframing if subject/background moves in the shot. You almost have to light everything/dress people/have art direction and set design with the grade already in mind to have an easy time of it ("that red robe won't grade well, let's switch it out for green" or whatever). Fixing it in post on a feature length project will make you want to fling yourself out the nearest window.

Brian Drysdale · November 10th, 2019, 04:08 PM

If you can paint the set that's fine, but you can do a lot with lighting.

Ryan, I suspect you've got little experience with lighting, you can change everything with the lighting. It's how they did it before Resolve etc.there are various shades of blue available and various methods of creating blue on the walls.
If it's a feature film find another location if you want a painted blue wall or paint the wall, Resolve won't do that for you either, since their walls were originally neutral in colour in their example.

Having been in the Bradbury Building, it looks nothing like this in reality:

Ryan Elder · November 10th, 2019, 07:11 PM

Well it's just that I was told before in another thread on here, not to light the walls as oppose to paint cause lighting needs to be motivated. A lot of scenes in my script are set in an office building, so if the walls are lit blue, behind the actors, instead of painted, would that be bad motivation for the lighting, or could that work? Plus I want the background to be darker than the actors, which means the lights on the actors that are not blue, would have to brighter then, right?

Josh Bass · November 10th, 2019, 07:28 PM

There are literally almost an infinite number of approaches to lighting. Its all about what works in each case.

Some gritty cop shows have ugly flo lighting, some have it where all the lights are off and sun is pouring in. Why are the lights off in the police station???? WHO CARES! It works in that circumstance. Look at CSI. that is NOT what a lab looks like. Its a stylistic choice to make everything “cool”.

Bottom line as long as audience buys it and doesnt find themselves taken out of the story and asking “why does that look so weird?” its all good.

Moonlight isnt really bright blue and people dont have little toppy hair light glints in a pitch dark room but no one complains do they (other than other filmmakers)?

Ryan Elder · November 11th, 2019, 01:44 AM

Oh okay, thanks. It's just that when I asked about it before to other filmmakers they said that lighting walls looks unnatural as oppose to paint. I also asked about it on here before, and Boyd Ostroff's comment made me think there will be problems:

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv...wed-paint.html

Does Boyd have good points though?

Brian Drysdale · November 11th, 2019, 02:39 AM

You've given an example of a white wall that has been changed to blue using colour correction. It's basically the same thing, the wall hasn't been painted, you can do a similar thing with light. It;s basically setting the camera colour temperature towards the tungsten end and lighting the faces with the correct light, while the rest of the room is towards daylight You need to be careful with the light level hitting the walls and light the character separately. which would involve controlling any stray light with flags It's the same as a night time office.

"I was told before in another thread on here, not to light the walls as oppose to paint cause lighting needs to be motivated" you are mixing up two different things. Coloured light can be motivated, it can be a style decision based on the world of the film

If most of your filming takes place in these offices I would paint the walls blue for the film and then paint them white again after you've finished. Given that you've got a tight schedule and probably don't have an experienced colourist, this is a no brainer. Give it to the art department, it's their job - find a location where you/re allowed you to do this, it will save a lot time of time in the long run.

It's possible to do a lot of things, but since you seem to be making police procedural, slightly grimy painted walls would be the way to go. I'm surprised you're even considering anything else.

Ryan Elder · November 11th, 2019, 02:53 AM

Oh okay, it's just I wanted a cold blue look or at least that is the way I am picturing it. However, I cannot find a location where the owners are okay with me painting, even if I paint it back after. But if I were to light it instead, should the fill light and back light be daylight balanced light, while the key light is tungsten balanced?

November 6th, 2019, 08:39 AM	#151
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Thanks for sharing.

November 10th, 2019, 12:24 PM	#152
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Oh, I also watched this tutorial on color grading. At 11:10 into the video, the colorist separates the skin tones from everything else in the picture: The Summer Blockbuster Colour Grading Tutorial - YouTube So by isolating the skin tone, he is able to give everything else in the picture one color, in this case, a teal color. So should I do something like that, if I have unwanted colors, is to isolate the skin tone, and then make the background all one color, to make everything blend more, like he's doing?

November 10th, 2019, 01:39 PM	#153
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? There are lots of tutorials on using Resolve, I suggest you use Google and search for them, rather than expecting people here do the work for you. Steven Hullfish has a book on Digital Colour Correction and some videos online.

November 10th, 2019, 01:54 PM	#154
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? I think he's asking more of an artistic question as opposed to a technical question. I used color grading this way (controlling unwanted colors) on one of my recent projects, BUT, I am not trying to produce a professional film project to sell or distribute or use as calling card. It was a silly music video for my band. If I were you, I would, as everyone said, try to control my set better. Please also note that this stuff is not as easy as this guy makes it look. Notice how even in the ungraded shot, except for his skin tones, it's almost monochromatic to begin with. The walls and environment, even his suit is basically black and white. In addition, he's/his skin is lit and pops out from the background. THAT's why this works so well. If we you were trying to get this look on some shot with green trees and red brick buildings and purple cars, you're going to have a much harder time. So you STILL need the right set/wardrobe/lighting to make this stuff work or risk tedious rotoscoping unless you get really lucky. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

November 10th, 2019, 02:30 PM	#155
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Okay thanks. I tried doing the grade myself before on a short film, but the skin did not isolate the best way and there was some definite noise for sure. Some of the objects in the background were a similar enough color to the skin and they stuck out like a sore thumb I thought as a result. I am just trying to come up with more creative ways to control the color in the background on sets, where I cannot control the color, budget wise.

November 10th, 2019, 03:01 PM	#156
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? You've clearly got a very different idea of grading to me. I'm rather bad at it, but using it to change the colour of the set is a new one on me. Is that not more of an effect rather than a grade?

November 10th, 2019, 03:03 PM	#157
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? That book on colour correction goes into that type of stuff, however, it's a lot easier to use gels on your lights. There's a full range of colours available, check out the Rosco Laboratories and the Lee Filters web sites.

November 10th, 2019, 03:23 PM	#159
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Yes, lit blue looks different than painted blue or grading for sure. Lit blue is going to literally look like you have blue lights on it. Sometimes that's what you want. Sometimes it isn't. I think of grading as the more artistic side, bleach bypass look, sepia, teal and orange, etc. "color correction" is the problem fixing, shot to shot matching etc. to make it look neutral/"correct". So yes, you can significantly alter the image with grading and it is a valid approach...SOMETIMES. Da Vinci and probably any other CC program wants contrast between the things you want to separate from each other (e.g. skin and background). That means color contrast as well as luminance. Either one of those being too similar to the areas of the image around it will cause problems when trying to separate like you want. It also wants a lack of contrast in areas you're trying to make look the same. If you want the background all one color, it needs to be fairly narrow in its color range to begin with, same with skin tones. You can keep applying qualifiers when the differences are too great for one to handle and have them overlap but sometimes it doesn't work well and gets noisy. I messed with all this on the aforementioned music video and that was my experience. Of course you can mask/power window to isolate, but then you are looking at, again, rotoscoping or at least doing some keyframing if subject/background moves in the shot. You almost have to light everything/dress people/have art direction and set design with the grade already in mind to have an easy time of it ("that red robe won't grade well, let's switch it out for green" or whatever). Fixing it in post on a feature length project will make you want to fling yourself out the nearest window. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

November 10th, 2019, 04:08 PM	#160
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? If you can paint the set that's fine, but you can do a lot with lighting. Ryan, I suspect you've got little experience with lighting, you can change everything with the lighting. It's how they did it before Resolve etc.there are various shades of blue available and various methods of creating blue on the walls. If it's a feature film find another location if you want a painted blue wall or paint the wall, Resolve won't do that for you either, since their walls were originally neutral in colour in their example. Having been in the Bradbury Building, it looks nothing like this in reality: Blade Runner Bradbury Scene - YouTube Last edited by Brian Drysdale; November 10th, 2019 at 05:34 PM.

November 10th, 2019, 07:11 PM	#161
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Well it's just that I was told before in another thread on here, not to light the walls as oppose to paint cause lighting needs to be motivated. A lot of scenes in my script are set in an office building, so if the walls are lit blue, behind the actors, instead of painted, would that be bad motivation for the lighting, or could that work? Plus I want the background to be darker than the actors, which means the lights on the actors that are not blue, would have to brighter then, right?

November 10th, 2019, 07:28 PM	#162
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? There are literally almost an infinite number of approaches to lighting. Its all about what works in each case. Some gritty cop shows have ugly flo lighting, some have it where all the lights are off and sun is pouring in. Why are the lights off in the police station???? WHO CARES! It works in that circumstance. Look at CSI. that is NOT what a lab looks like. Its a stylistic choice to make everything “cool”. Bottom line as long as audience buys it and doesnt find themselves taken out of the story and asking “why does that look so weird?” its all good. Moonlight isnt really bright blue and people dont have little toppy hair light glints in a pitch dark room but no one complains do they (other than other filmmakers)? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

November 11th, 2019, 01:44 AM	#163
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Oh okay, thanks. It's just that when I asked about it before to other filmmakers they said that lighting walls looks unnatural as oppose to paint. I also asked about it on here before, and Boyd Ostroff's comment made me think there will be problems: https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv...wed-paint.html Does Boyd have good points though?

November 11th, 2019, 02:39 AM	#164
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? You've given an example of a white wall that has been changed to blue using colour correction. It's basically the same thing, the wall hasn't been painted, you can do a similar thing with light. It;s basically setting the camera colour temperature towards the tungsten end and lighting the faces with the correct light, while the rest of the room is towards daylight You need to be careful with the light level hitting the walls and light the character separately. which would involve controlling any stray light with flags It's the same as a night time office. "I was told before in another thread on here, not to light the walls as oppose to paint cause lighting needs to be motivated" you are mixing up two different things. Coloured light can be motivated, it can be a style decision based on the world of the film If most of your filming takes place in these offices I would paint the walls blue for the film and then paint them white again after you've finished. Given that you've got a tight schedule and probably don't have an experienced colourist, this is a no brainer. Give it to the art department, it's their job - find a location where you/re allowed you to do this, it will save a lot time of time in the long run. It's possible to do a lot of things, but since you seem to be making police procedural, slightly grimy painted walls would be the way to go. I'm surprised you're even considering anything else.

November 11th, 2019, 02:53 AM	#165
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Oh okay, it's just I wanted a cold blue look or at least that is the way I am picturing it. However, I cannot find a location where the owners are okay with me painting, even if I paint it back after. But if I were to light it instead, should the fill light and back light be daylight balanced light, while the key light is tungsten balanced?