Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography?

[Ryan Elder]

Yeah and that's just it, is I feel I need to learn what is acceptable and not acceptable to most viewers. I don't feel like treating everything as a case by case basis and wait till you see what works and what does not, after it's shot is best, and feel I have to know before shooting.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ask yourself one question. Why don't you know? You've been doing it for a long time now Ryan.

[Brian Drysdale]

In films everything is case by case, there's no standard template, you have to use your creative judgment on the scene you're filming, If you're shooting near to a green (or any other colour) car, is it going to be distracting in the frame? The same can happen with any other movable objects you may find on a location,

You can't plan everything in advance, a director has to think on their feet, you may suddenly be refused a location, so you may need to quickly find an alternative. An actor may be sick, so you need to find a replacement. The camera might develop a fault that takes time to fix, so you lose half the shots you're were planning because you don't have enough time left. Which ones do you need to tell the story?

As Paul says, you have to ask yourself the question "Why don't you know?".

[Paul R Johnson]

We seem to often have to say quite negative things to Ryan, but in fairness, now I'm getting on I am noticing that it's sometimes me who is now left behind in some ways. I now spend most time managing - so planning, preparing, organising, that kind of thing, but I have always prided myself that come push to shove, I could do the jobs any of the people working for me do. However, things have moved quite fast, and being spread across disciplines that are evolving very fast, I cannot keep up. I now have two of my people that I could not replace with me, or at least, replace them with me doing as well as them. I would now do an acceptable job, but not as well as them - and it really wrangles in my head. I just do not have time to get up to speed enough to be at the top of the job role. I could cover, but that's it! In my real role, it doesn't matter. I don't have the need to be able to do their job, but I have always been able to, and probably this was why I got many of my clients - somebody suggested me as a good solution.

I don't like not being on the mental list of good at X, and good at Y any longer. I've always prided myself at being good (but not exceptional) at loads of things. When the phone rings I say yes, then ask what the job is. Now I have to be careful. I now have to say no to some, and pass on the names of the people who I know can do it. I really don't like this.

Ryan worries me because he's at the bottom and wants really badly to climb the ladder, but using this analogy, is afraid of heights.

Look at the great Directors. Try to understand their personality, their background. There's a good tale about George Lucas, who wanted to make movies, and had so much pressure not to, but he persevered and went from being considered a bit of an idiot with what was near to obsession, to an amazingly respected individual in quite a short period of time. Another good one to study is Gerry Anderson, the Thunderbird creator. He wanted so badly to make movies he took the puppet offer as a 'stop gap', and had a terrible time convincing producers to let him use real actors. With a couple of exceptions, he's still after his death, known for Thunderbirds - yet he did make a real, big budget movie that only the fans know about. Reading his history of dealing with the money people is very sobering. Constant and unrelenting battles with money, and what he considered interference. The Producers wanted to sell to the US - a very important market, so his casting got interfered with, inserting American actors, then even having to fire established characters and use a new Director who just didn't get it - ruining in his words, a second series. There's some great history to read about this guy that would be relevant to Ryan I think. No money, high standards, terrible interference in the art elements and his requirement for very high standards from the team.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

In films everything is case by case, there's no standard template, you have to use your creative judgment on the scene you're filming, If you're shooting near to a green (or any other colour) car, is it going to be distracting in the frame? The same can happen with any other movable objects you may find on a location,

You can't plan everything in advance, a director has to think on their feet, you may suddenly be refused a location, so you may need to quickly find an alternative. An actor may be sick, so you need to find a replacement. The camera might develop a fault that takes time to fix, so you lose half the shots you're were planning because you don't have enough time left. Which ones do you need to tell the story?

As Paul says, you have to ask yourself the question "Why don't you know?".

Oh okay, but is there any standard guidelines then, on how to make a movie? Or is everything we are taught online and in film school, not be relied upon, if everything is case by case?

[Paul R Johnson]

I suppose the question really links to the quality of the film school, and clearly you have been fed very selective information on the movie industry, as have many of your advising friends.

You have a NEED for guidelines. We, on the other hand find them useful, until there is one that just won't work, when we discard it as not applicable. More like if THIS happens, do THIS, unless we know better, when we simply ignore it. Of course occasionally, or regularly depending on your skill or plain bad luck, it comes crashing down. That's how it is. Remember that skills audit I suggested months ago? Did you try it and learn anything?

Over the weekend at a party of all things, a young guy came up to me and started to ask me questions about my career. Very odd really, but somebody had obviously fed him some stories. We chatted for quite a while and he said "So basically, should I do what you do and lie?" He had missed the point. I'd told him that when the phone rings and somebody asks if I can do something I always say yes. If I have stood next to a guy who is using a particular bit of kit I've never ever touched, I watch intently and take it all in, and probably ask a few questions about things I cannot see, or work out. Next time somebody asks if I'm happy with using an old Vinten Plover, I say yes. Never touched one in my life, but I understand the common parts and can adapt. That's how I got my very first TV cameraman job. That job got me another, and that another. The idea of saying no - which would have been the correct answer never occurred to me! That's what I have done all through my life and I have enough confidence and perhaps smugness when it goes well to deal with it. Jump in, both feet is my Moto!

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I feel I've had the opposite experience some people say I need to learn when to say no.

[Paul R Johnson]

Yes - but with the greatest respect, you are a novice at it, and I'm a grumpy old done it all - however, when I was 18, I started saying yes.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, but is there any standard guidelines then, on how to make a movie? Or is everything we are taught online and in film school, not be relied upon, if everything is case by case?

There is a basic cinematic grammar, but how you use the vocabulary is up to you and you knowing if your target audience understands it and the emotions this conveys to them.

Unless you're making a soap opera, each scene will be directed, performed and shot on a case by case basis, otherwise you are painting by numbers. As the director you need to know how the scene fits into the whole, not on the basis of shots, but in the emotional "journey" (over used word these days) of every character within the film.

Genres often have conventions, it's how you subvert and hide your use of them that prevents your film from becoming cliche ridden.

[Roger Gunkel]

When I was seventeen, I decided to apply for a job with Singer sewing machines as a salesman. I was young and confident and secured the job. I had to go on a residential training course and learn how to sell the way that Singer wanted me to. It involved learning a script of what to say and how to respond to various questions. We were all required to learn the script off by heart, which was written by a top Singer sales executive. We also learned how to use and service the machines. At the end of the course, we were given intensive training on the brand new innovative 'Touch and Sew'machine which was due to be released, then after testing, we were sent back to our base shops.

A week later, I became the first in the UK to sell the new machine and indeed sold the first six. After 3 months I was the top UK salesmen and was invited to London to demonstrate to all the new trainee salesman exactly why I was the top man. I was sat in the centre of the training room with someone pretending to be an interested customer and told to start my sales routine. I started by asking where they had been on holiday, then about their pets and started talking about my own interests. After 5 minutes I was stopped and told that it was completely irrelevant and to use my sales patter. I replied that I sold the machines by building a relationship with each customer as each customer was different, long before I gently introduced the new machine into the conversation. I also pointed out that I couldn't even remember the script. I was immediately told that the best people in the company had developed the sales script and would I please start using it. I responded that I never used it, and used my own initiative. At this point the proceedings were stopped and I was taken from the room and severely reprimanded for ignoring company policy. That was followed by a written reprimand to my area manager, at which point I immediately resigned.

Absolutely nothing to do with film making, but the point is that you use rules and guidelines as just that- guidance, but every circumstance is different and you have to adapt yourself to the demands that are presented to you. If you only ever do what you have been told is best, you will never develop your own creativity and get yourself noticed.

Roger

[Paul R Johnson]

That's exactly it, Roger! You KNEW you were right, and the fact that you sold loads was the evidence. Clearly the other people only thought they knew better - good for you. I've done similar take a stance things.

Oddly - in my pantomime role, the company owner knows I break all the rules, and took me to one side and said "Your show took 1.5 million last year. I don't care if you break the rules if you can do this again". Next day one of the senior people sent me stacks of new rules and processes, which I will ignore if they don't make sense, and put into action and use them if they do. If I mess up badly, then I deserve to be fired - that's how it works. Like the boss of McDonalds. Or not.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Rule: Look at every element in the camera’s frame.

Not a rule: Green cars are bad in backgrounds. It’s situational.

Rule: Step back and try to see each element with fresh and objective eyes. Sometime its called the grandmother test, that is, what would my grandmother get out of this scene?

Not a rule: If I like it, if I understand it, it’s good.

I really appreciate what Paul and Roger wrote of their experiences in the last few posts. Me too.

The question I ask myself is: As a life-long learner, can I learn fast enough to stay ahead of the needs of the role or project?

[John Nantz]

With musicians and music, the saying is “Play to the crowd” or audience. Expanding on that a bit further, one wouldn’t (normally) sing opera in the local pub or play country-western/hip-hop (etc) at the Vienna Opera.

A couple years ago we went to an Elvis impersonator performance in Vienna and it was amazing. Almost as soon as the event (three of them) was announced they were essentially sold out and we got two seats for the last one and my wife sat behind me and I had women on each side. Fantastic stage performance before several thousand people. The performance was very much like those from Las Vegas and the audience ate it up, ending with the encore “Johnny B. Goode” where he walked the aisles with all the ladies coming unglued. Hey, we’re talking 50 years since the real Elvis and his stage presence lives on. Play to the crowd!

With advertising as with video, or movies, it would be something similar. Who is the audience? What will they accept? The Sci-Fi buff wants good animation where as the Saturday morning kid watching cartoons, not so particular. The weekend mechanic trying to figure out how to get the lawnmower running by watching YouTube vids wants the meat about how to fix it but image stabilization with the presenters smart phone (using dumb stabilization, or even with green cars in the background) will continue to watch if the content is there.

Speaking of green cars, a vintage XK120 Jaguar in British racing green is cool so that would be a distraction (for me). Getting back to the thread title about deep focus, I would focus on the Jag. (Sorry actors, but then its not my movie)

Content is king so how the story goes is very important. Scene to scene, does it flow? They’re only a matter of seconds long so there shouldn’t be a lot of time to get too distracted.

Same in live music, if you’re playing something and make a mistake with a note, just keep the rhythm going and don’t miss a beat. If the rhythm changes it will be really noticed.

Got a kick reading everybody’s comments. “No Problem” Paul, Risk taker Roger, and Professor Seth who is still learning!

And there’s one more thing …
Way back when I was talking with a guy who was in the Army about his experience with a major field inspection with a large number of platoons (or whatever they were), and he was in charge of one of them. It was a full dress type of inspection and all the platoons or battalions (whatever) were out on the parade ground in full attention. Everybody lined up in orderly rows looking their best. As luck would have it, it started to drizzle then rain. He ordered his platoon to put on their rain gear and none of the others did. No, he didn’t get reprimanded, he got an at-a-boy (or something like that). What was the rule? Stand at attention. Did he keep it? Well, it’s your call.

Even politicians play to the crowd.
Risk taker Roger did but in one case audience #2 was also listening.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

When I was seventeen, I decided to apply for a job with Singer sewing machines as a salesman. I was young and confident and secured the job. I had to go on a residential training course and learn how to sell the way that Singer wanted me to. It involved learning a script of what to say and how to respond to various questions. We were all required to learn the script off by heart, which was written by a top Singer sales executive. We also learned how to use and service the machines. At the end of the course, we were given intensive training on the brand new innovative 'Touch and Sew'machine which was due to be released, then after testing, we were sent back to our base shops.

A week later, I became the first in the UK to sell the new machine and indeed sold the first six. After 3 months I was the top UK salesmen and was invited to London to demonstrate to all the new trainee salesman exactly why I was the top man. I was sat in the centre of the training room with someone pretending to be an interested customer and told to start my sales routine. I started by asking where they had been on holiday, then about their pets and started talking about my own interests. After 5 minutes I was stopped and told that it was completely irrelevant and to use my sales patter. I replied that I sold the machines by building a relationship with each customer as each customer was different, long before I gently introduced the new machine into the conversation. I also pointed out that I couldn't even remember the script. I was immediately told that the best people in the company had developed the sales script and would I please start using it. I responded that I never used it, and used my own initiative. At this point the proceedings were stopped and I was taken from the room and severely reprimanded for ignoring company policy. That was followed by a written reprimand to my area manager, at which point I immediately resigned.

Absolutely nothing to do with film making, but the point is that you use rules and guidelines as just that- guidance, but every circumstance is different and you have to adapt yourself to the demands that are presented to you. If you only ever do what you have been told is best, you will never develop your own creativity and get yourself noticed.

Roger

Great story. I'll take two! ;-)

We may never have heard this great story if it wasn't for that green car. Maybe the green car should get the lead in Ryan's movie. Reminds me of Columbo's what make was it?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Reminds me of Columbo's what make was it?

1959 Peugeot 403 Cabriolet.

For more info, see https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/jim-mo...-403-cabriolet

Fully agree, Roger told a great story!