What equipment is good for this type of camera movement?

Brian Drysdale · June 30th, 2019, 06:21 AM

Adding some weight to the buggy (eg sand bag(s)) would probably smooth things out a bit more with those slow moves. A bit of inertia assists in keeping the speed constant.

Paul R Johnson · June 30th, 2019, 09:30 AM

The floor is not remotely flat and I wondered about shooting fast frame rate and slowing it but the point I think is that there are ways ryan could have tried but he gave up!

Brian Drysdale · June 30th, 2019, 11:04 AM

Planks or sheeting are good for less than smooth floors.

Michael Stevenson · July 1st, 2019, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

I’m glad you said that. Thought my judgement was going!!

Thanks, Paul. If you actually watched the movie you would see it is 95% shot with a Steadicam just like so many other movies. Steadicam moves are very organic because they depend on Physics not technology. But what do I know?

Brian Drysdale · July 1st, 2019, 05:57 AM

Maybe so, but that particular Castaway shot looks more like a dolly shot than Steadicam shot. That's not to say you couldn't use a Steadicam, but you may be into using it with a gyro for the slow speed and longer focal length lens and a highly skilled operator. A dolly would be the easiest method of doing that shot.

Given the discussion, it would still be beyond the skill level of Ryan's crew if they had a Steadicam, plus the thread is about how he could do that type of shot with their kit.

Ryan Elder · July 1st, 2019, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

The floor is not remotely flat and I wondered about shooting fast frame rate and slowing it but the point I think is that there are ways ryan could have tried but he gave up!

Oh I didn't give up, I was just busy helping shoot someone else's movie project the last few weeks, sorry for the late reply.

As for shooting in a fast frame rate and then slowing it down, the actors dialogue would be slowed down too then, wouldn't it, if I wanted the actor to talk?

Brian Drysdale · July 1st, 2019, 05:13 PM

Don't use that method with dialogue, it only really works with static subjects or subjects you can control the speed of, so that they appear to be at a normal speed when the slow motion is applied. Or, if you wish to have the slow motion effect.

Ryan Elder · July 1st, 2019, 08:03 PM

Oh okay thanks. But when it comes to movement where I want to record dialogue, what if I have a tripod with wheels, and I put a gimbal on the tripod? Would the gimbal help make it smoother when I roll the tripod around on wheels?

Ryan Elder · July 1st, 2019, 08:55 PM

However, the tripod dolly did make noise on someone else's shoot that I worked on before, if noise is usually a problem with a tripod dolly?

Brian Drysdale · July 2nd, 2019, 12:38 AM

Noise will be created by a number of factors.

1. How good your kit is

2. How appropriate is the kit for the shot you're attempting to do.

2. Is the kit well maintained and if the grip is on top of any possible noise sources during the shot.

3. The surface(s) you're operating on.

Get or make a good dolly and you won't need a gimbal, unless you're going over a rough surface. Unless you've got one that allows remote tilt and pan control of the camera, using a gimbal limits the camera movement on the dolly for precise framing.

Paul R Johnson · July 2nd, 2019, 02:25 AM

Noisy professional or bodged up kit is just best avoided.

Think back to your science classes at school. Moments, inertia, that kind of stuff.

if you put a gimbal mount onto something like the thing in my daft experiment, then a 5mm movement induced by the wheels on unsmooth pavement produces 5mm of movement +/- anything introduced by suspension components - so your gimbal offers no smoothing potential at all in the vertical plane. In short, balancing the camera on the support with or without the gimbal will move the lens through the same vertical movement.

If YOU sit on the support, and hold your arm out, in a similar shape to a steadicam arm, then the gimbal will remain in it's vertical height above ground position because your arm has mass, and therefore inertia. This because of the distance to your shoulder pivot point. Gimbals are designed to keep the camera pointing in the same direction, even if you change the angle and rotational relationship of your hand or whatever holds the camera. This they do very well. The real issue with gimbals of course is that they object to panning and tilting, so electronic means are used to change their spacial orientation. This movement is what sets good gimbals apart from poorer ones. It's the old carrying a cup of tea of the stairs thing - do it with your arm out, and you don't spill. Try it with your elbow fixed to your side and it does.

Ryan - just remember that because a technique is tried and fails, it doesn't mean the technique itself is bad. if a technique squeaked or squealed then you fix this, and continue. You don't dismiss the technique. You analyse and draw conclusions.

Ryan Elder · July 2nd, 2019, 06:43 AM

Oh okay thanks. The gimbal not panning and tilting is good though right? So if I wanted to do a circular motion around an actor, than I will travel in the circular motion without panning, if that would work...

Brian Drysdale · July 2nd, 2019, 07:31 AM

The gimbal without pan and tilt is OK for simple shots, however, a drama director can be more demanding.

Josh Bass · July 2nd, 2019, 08:20 AM

Ryan will just have to NOT be so demanding.

Ryan Elder · July 4th, 2019, 07:09 AM

Oh okay, how are drama directors more demanding?

June 30th, 2019, 06:21 AM	#46
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Adding some weight to the buggy (eg sand bag(s)) would probably smooth things out a bit more with those slow moves. A bit of inertia assists in keeping the speed constant.

June 30th, 2019, 09:30 AM	#47
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? The floor is not remotely flat and I wondered about shooting fast frame rate and slowing it but the point I think is that there are ways ryan could have tried but he gave up!

June 30th, 2019, 11:04 AM	#48
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Planks or sheeting are good for less than smooth floors.

July 1st, 2019, 05:57 AM	#50
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Maybe so, but that particular Castaway shot looks more like a dolly shot than Steadicam shot. That's not to say you couldn't use a Steadicam, but you may be into using it with a gyro for the slow speed and longer focal length lens and a highly skilled operator. A dolly would be the easiest method of doing that shot. Given the discussion, it would still be beyond the skill level of Ryan's crew if they had a Steadicam, plus the thread is about how he could do that type of shot with their kit.

July 1st, 2019, 05:13 PM	#52
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Don't use that method with dialogue, it only really works with static subjects or subjects you can control the speed of, so that they appear to be at a normal speed when the slow motion is applied. Or, if you wish to have the slow motion effect.

July 1st, 2019, 08:03 PM	#53
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Oh okay thanks. But when it comes to movement where I want to record dialogue, what if I have a tripod with wheels, and I put a gimbal on the tripod? Would the gimbal help make it smoother when I roll the tripod around on wheels?

July 1st, 2019, 08:55 PM	#54
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? However, the tripod dolly did make noise on someone else's shoot that I worked on before, if noise is usually a problem with a tripod dolly?

July 2nd, 2019, 12:38 AM	#55
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Noise will be created by a number of factors. 1. How good your kit is 2. How appropriate is the kit for the shot you're attempting to do. 2. Is the kit well maintained and if the grip is on top of any possible noise sources during the shot. 3. The surface(s) you're operating on. Get or make a good dolly and you won't need a gimbal, unless you're going over a rough surface. Unless you've got one that allows remote tilt and pan control of the camera, using a gimbal limits the camera movement on the dolly for precise framing. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 2nd, 2019 at 01:13 AM.

July 2nd, 2019, 02:25 AM	#56
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Noisy professional or bodged up kit is just best avoided. Think back to your science classes at school. Moments, inertia, that kind of stuff. if you put a gimbal mount onto something like the thing in my daft experiment, then a 5mm movement induced by the wheels on unsmooth pavement produces 5mm of movement +/- anything introduced by suspension components - so your gimbal offers no smoothing potential at all in the vertical plane. In short, balancing the camera on the support with or without the gimbal will move the lens through the same vertical movement. If YOU sit on the support, and hold your arm out, in a similar shape to a steadicam arm, then the gimbal will remain in it's vertical height above ground position because your arm has mass, and therefore inertia. This because of the distance to your shoulder pivot point. Gimbals are designed to keep the camera pointing in the same direction, even if you change the angle and rotational relationship of your hand or whatever holds the camera. This they do very well. The real issue with gimbals of course is that they object to panning and tilting, so electronic means are used to change their spacial orientation. This movement is what sets good gimbals apart from poorer ones. It's the old carrying a cup of tea of the stairs thing - do it with your arm out, and you don't spill. Try it with your elbow fixed to your side and it does. Ryan - just remember that because a technique is tried and fails, it doesn't mean the technique itself is bad. if a technique squeaked or squealed then you fix this, and continue. You don't dismiss the technique. You analyse and draw conclusions.

July 2nd, 2019, 06:43 AM	#57
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Oh okay thanks. The gimbal not panning and tilting is good though right? So if I wanted to do a circular motion around an actor, than I will travel in the circular motion without panning, if that would work...

July 2nd, 2019, 07:31 AM	#58
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? The gimbal without pan and tilt is OK for simple shots, however, a drama director can be more demanding.

July 2nd, 2019, 08:20 AM	#59
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Ryan will just have to NOT be so demanding. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

July 4th, 2019, 07:09 AM	#60
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What equipment is good for this type of camera movement? Oh okay, how are drama directors more demanding?