Is true that most film festivals will only accept two aspect ratios?

[Ryan Elder]

I am wanting producing and directing a movie which I would want to send into film festivals. I was thinking of shooting it in either 2.20:1, or 2.50:1 as I feel those might be the best aspect ratios to tell the story with. Both have different advantages so I would have to choose one.

However, I was told by a filmmaker who has more experience with film festivals that most film festival projectionists, do not know how to project and size any aspect ratio you want, so most festivals will therefore only accept two aspect ratios. 1.85:1 and 2.39:1. So I would have to shoot in one of those two if I wanted higher chances of getting in.

Another filmmaker told me that's not true, and I can shoot in whichever one I wanted and, the aspect ratio is not a disqualification for most film festivals.

I was also advised to ask each film festival I want to send it into specifically, but I can't deliver a different aspect ratio for each one. I need to know what is the best aspect ratio to shoot in, before shooting starts, so I can frame the shots properly of course. So does anyone know what the rules are there, or if there is any?

Thanks for any input. I really appreciate it!

[Josh Hayes]

I'm sure there's people with more knowledge than me, but since there's no response yet I'll chime in. So yes and no. Kinda. But the best option is to get everything setup correctly before you start (which you're on the way to doing so congrats) so you don't have to do the workarounds. The following answer is aimed towards features. I don't have any experience with shorts.

Basically when your film is done if you want it to be able to be played theatrically a lot of theatres (and therefore film festivals) require a "DCI Compliant DCP (Digital Cinema Package). Which is a fancy way of saying there's a set standard format that most theaters speak in. It's a different color space (not Rec 209), it's not 1920X1080, and it's not 23.98. And also sound will be different as it will be in real or fake surround sound (but save that for later). That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of workarounds.

I just finished my first feature documentary (took 10 years which so I'm a mix of excited and embarrassed), so I'm learning the work arounds and the film festival landscape (currently we've recently submitted to about 18 film festivals so far). So I actually came across this thread because I'm going to create a separate post asking about one of the workarounds. But let me give an easy example. I shot my film in 23.976, and I can basically drop it in a 24p project file and export it in FCPX and it will be fine (as long as the sound that goes to sound mix is from this 24.00 format and not 23.976 format). Frames aren't added, playback speed is changed and whalla. I'm covered.

Aspect ratio is kind of like this is well. It's not that a film festival explicitly says we want your film to be Flat or in Scope because of some creative expectation, it's that they want a DCP that works perfectly so that when they project it theatrically there aren't any issues (weird color shifts, sound that isn't dialed in, squeezing, undesired letterboxing/pillarboxing, etc... The question I'm going to ask is about conforming my aspect ratio, so my understanding here is less complete. However I shot my film at 1920X1080 (16X9) and I don't think it's going to be nearly as easy as the 23.976 to 24 conversion you should. I'm beginning brainstorming my new project and I'm setting all these standards before now that I know better than I did.

To dig deeper and get a better technical description research more DCPs. That's just a primer as it has been explained to me in workshops and by a few festival folks. Hope that helps!

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks. I was told that most projectionists will probably not know how to size a projection that goes outside those two sizes, if that's true.

I was thinking of shooting a feature film in 2.20:1 I made a DCP once before in 1920x1080, since that is what the DCP maker asked for, but is that normal?

However, for this feature, I want to shoot in 2.20:1 I think, instead of the more traditional 2.39:1. But if I do, am I suppose to put it in a 1.85:1 format with black bars on the top and bottom, just so a projectionist can size it properly, without problems?

Or should I just put it in 1920 x 872, which is equivalent to 2.20:1, and they should have no problems sizing that?

[Josh Bass]

My answer would be shoot it however you want and convert it to the aspect ratio the specific fest requires when you enter or screen. So many entries are done online now, youd’d probably have a permanent online screener that would be the submission file for many fests. If it needs to be 1.85:1 or whatever just screw around til it fits in 1.85:1 box. Youll have black bars on top and bottom. Not a big deal.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

I am wanting producing and directing a movie which I would want to send into film festivals. I was thinking of shooting it in either 2.20:1, or 2.50:1 as I feel those might be the best aspect ratios to tell the story with. Both have different advantages so I would have to choose one.

Always interesting to know. Are you in a 50Hz or 60Hz country?

There are many aspects to the showing of images. Depends on where the festival is going to screen the productions. If it is just going on to a video projector basically any format will do. If it is to be shown in a true cinema venue on a true theater digital 'film' projector some issues can arise. Theater issues, the biggest problem is there are still many theaters that can't handle 25p as they have DCP compliant projectors that run at the specified DCP frame rates of 24 and 48. It's all actually a bit of a hornets nest as the whole DCP standards thing is constantly evolving. The only FPS you can count on for sure are 24 and 48. When I say 24p I mean TRUE 24p not 23.976.

http://www.dcimovies.com/Recommended_Practice/

http://www.dcimovies.com/compliant_equipment/

Some of the other issues you can come across. If you supply a 25p file, if they can play it, it will get played back with a 4% audio pitch difference and the color space may be off somewhat. The majority of patrons would never notice the speed change. Any color shift? A different question. The film would also run 4% longer. For many years the broadcast practice in 50Hz countries was to play 24 fps movies at 25 fps for transmission. In that case you have a 4% speed increase. That overcomes problems with conversion especially with the sound. Pitch shifting conversions on 5.1 and 7.1 surround can sometimes introduce some nasty phase problems. The algorithms required to do that correctly are pretty sophisticated and are only found in high end DAWs, the likes of ProTools etc.

If you want full compliance withe the DCP standards you could look at one of the pieces of software used for compliant DCP creation is easyDCP Creator. To make a DCP compliant file is more than just turning up with a 2k or 4k 24p file.

https://en.easydcp.com/publisher.php

Watch some of the videos available on this page for more information on creating DCP Cinema packages. The first three mainly deal with taking in non compliant sizes and color spaces and show you how to output the correct 2k and 4k DCP container packages in the correct DCP color spaces.

https://en.easydcp.com/support.php?product_id=1

Good luck with the venture.

Chris Young
Sydney

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I am afraid I am not sure if I am in a 50 hz or 60 hz country. I haven't had to deal with Hz so far. I am in Canada, but would like my first feature film to play in other nations for sure.

As for needing true 24 fps and not 23.976, so many cameras nowadays that DPs have, shoot in 23.976 only. So if you need true 24, are you able to convert to true 24 in post, without problems, or what would have to be done in that case?

Also, none of the links you posted said anything about needing a certain aspect ratio for theater standards. Does that mean I can choose other aspect ratios, than 1.85:1 and 2.39:1, if I wanted to?

[Christopher Young]

Hi.

Okay understood. I now see you are in Canada which is a 60Hz power supply as is the United States. Europe and basically anywhere else that fell under the shadow of the the British Commonwealth are usually 50Hz mains power supplies. The reason I asked this is because some film festivals will take any frequency and even any aspect ratio so things like frequency are of no consequence. They are generally more interested in the artistic content of the production. I note now though you are saying "... but would like my first feature film to play in other nations for sure." If this is your aim I honestly think your best option for sure is to shoot and post in 24 fps as this is a world wide excepted and understood film standard. Again I can refer you to a couple of pages that may clarify the issue for you. Specifically converting 23.976 to 24 fps can cause major issues with the sound if it isn't conformed correctly.

"Conforming is the process of speeding up or slowing down footage to match a frame rate. This is most commonly performed when going between drop and non-drop frame rates.

23.976 fps –> 24 fps (.1% change)

While subtle, these effects can have an impact over time. If audio is not re-sampled, for instance, to reflect the new time base, it will begin to drift. In the case of 23.976 fps to 24 fps conversion, audio will drift at a rate of approximately 1 second for every twenty minutes of video."

If you end up with a second out of sync after twenty minutes then this is obviously totally unacceptable. Shooting at a 'true' 24 fps eliminates this issue. As I mentioned previously digital audio workstations like Pro Tools can conform the audio correctly if the original is a 23.976 master.

Regarding the generally accepted aspect ratios for DCP compliance they are Flat (1.85:1) and [Scope (2.39:1)]

"Digital Cinema Packages are conformed for one of the following “containers”:

FLAT (1.85:1) SCOPE (2.39:1) FULL (1.9:1)*
2K 1998 x 1080 2048 x 858 2048 x 1080
4K 3996 x 2160 4096 x 1716 4096 x 2160

When an aspect ratio does not fit in one of the containers listed above, it will be letterboxed, pillarboxed, or resized to fit.

*The FULL container resolution is the maximum resolution that can be achieved using a 2K or 4K DCI projector. It is seldom used as the majority of flat screens are masked for 1.85:1."

Have a look at the following SimpleDCP pages as they will give you a pretty good guide as how to go about getting you film as compliant as possible. Getting it right at the beginning could save you a fair bit of drama later.

https://simpledcp.com/picking-right-aspect-ratio/
https://simpledcp.com/notes-on-frame-rate-conversion/

The problem is finding a camera that offers true 24p. There are not many of them. A number that come to mind are the Panasonic GH5,

[C4K] 4096x2160> 24.00p, 400Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit ALL-Intra) (LPCM, High-Res Audio) *7
MOV*2/*4-24.00Hz
[C4K] 4096x2160> 24.00p, 150Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit LongGOP) (LPCM, High-Res Audio) / 100Mbps (4:2:0 8-bit LongGOP) (LPCM, High-Res Audio)

The Panasonic EVA1

4096 x 2160 422 ALL-I 400M 29.97p, 24p, 25p, 23.98p4:2:2 10 bit400 Mbps (VBR)
2048 x 1920 422ALL-I 100M 29.97p, 24p, 25p, 23.98p4:2:2 10 bit100 Mbps (VBR)

Sony FS7/F5/F55

Onboard recording supports frame rates of 23.98, 25, 29.97, 50 and 59.94 fps at both QFHD (3840 x 2160) and DCI 4K (4096 x 2160). 24P DCI 4K is also supported. All of the above are available at various bit rates using the XAVC codec.

Obviously there are other cameras that can shoot DCI aspect ratios and frame rates like the ARRI and Blackmagic families of cameras which cover a wide range of budgets. Good value is the Blackmagic 4K BMPCC that offers 4096 x 2160 (4K DCI) 24 fps and at a very reasonable price. This is one of the reasons that the very reasonably priced Panasonic GH4/5 series has proved very popular with the Indy film community. They offer true 24p DCI. The new Panasonic full frame Lumix S1 and S1R don't much to the dismay of 'film' makers.

The reason I harp on getting it right is that in the past I have post produced a number of films for various clients and film festivals. After issues with a couple of the earlier ones I decided to stick closely to the accepted DCP requirements and since then have not had an issue and more importantly a knock back.

Again good luck!

Chris Young
Sydney

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. This is good to know cause I was told to get the GH5 for my first feature cause of many features that it has. But I have a lot of other things to consider in a camera besides, just the framerate alone of course, and what a DP will have access to, depending on who I have available to choose of course.

Okay, let's say in the end, I am forced to go with a camera that is 23.976, and let's say I want to convert it to 24 fps, and have the same be in sync. Normally I record sound in 24 bit/48 khz.

This is what I was told to record in before in order to sync to 23.976, and have the sync match. However, if I want to convert to 24fps after shooting in 23.976, then what will format will I have to record the sound in? Or do I still record in 24bit/48khz, and just convert it to something else later? Or would I have to do something else entirely to get the audio to sync to 24 fps? Normally I record onto a separate field recorder, if that makes a difference?

Also, let's say I want to shoot in a 2.20:1 aspect ratio. Would I then have to put the feature film in a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, with the 2.20:1 ratio letterboxed in black bars, within the 1.85:1 ratio?

[Christopher Young]

If you are forced to shoot in 23.976 then by rights you should marry up your audio to the 23.976 footage and edit all together. Once you have your finished master then you could then get the whole thing conformed correctly, vision and audio to 24p. This is done quite frequently.

Regardless of frame rate chosen obviously to get the best audio possible you would be recording externally to a quality multi-channel recorder, a Sound Devices unit or something similar. Most time it is 48/24 though some professional audio studios opt for 32, or even higher bit rates, depending on their systems and software. The higher accuracy offered by the higher rates makes for better final recording and mixing in the final mastering process.

If you don't have a big budget and want to make life and synchronization as simple as possible I would suggest you look at something like Tentacle Sync to keep it all together especially if using a mirrorless like a GH5. Tentacle is good for about 1 frame drift in 24 hours. Tentacle supports LTC Time code to SMPTE-12M Standard with SMPTE Timecode Rates of: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 29.97DF and 30 FPS. You use Tentacle Sync Studio (macOS) to import all audio and vision. You then sync audio and vision and then export either new files with embedded audio or export XML or AAF files for import into an NLE or Pro Tools for further/final post production. The latter is the most likely way you would go for a full audio lay up and audio sweetening post sessions.

Tentacle Sync E - YouTube

Tentacle Sync Studio Tutorial - Overview - YouTube

There are other sync options like UltraSync ONE and NanoLockit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=9QBKTla8o2U

Re the 2.20:1 aspect ratio?? Why 2.20:1. Oddly enough this was originally a 50's ratio for 70mm film. Sounds like you aim to shoot Anamorphic? If yes then normally this would be shot in 4:3 using an anamorphic lens to horizontally compress all footage into a 4:3 frame. Another anamorphic lens on the movie theatre projector corrects, decompresses the picture.
Many movies with aspect ratios of 1.85:1 in the USA or 1.66:1 in Europe are made using the more flexible and cheaper matte technique, This means filming and projecting without any expensive special lenses. The movie is produced in 1.375 format, and then the resulting image is simply cropped in post-production or the theater's projector to fit the desired aspect ratio of 1.85:1 or 1.66:1 or whatever is desired. Besides costing less, the main advantage of the matte technique is that it leaves you with the original footage areas that got cropped out for the theatrical release which can then be used in preference to pan-and-scan techniques when producing for DVD releases. A lot of things to consider in pre-production if your end product is being aimed at theatrical release and let's say 16:9 for television and DVD/BD.

A big undertaking. As I say a lot to consider but planned out correctly totally achievable I believe. More power to you.

Chris Young
Sydney

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

If you are forced to shoot in 23.976 then by rights you should marry up your audio to the 23.976 footage and edit all together. Once you have your finished master then you could then get the whole thing conformed correctly, vision and audio to 24p. This is done quite frequently.

Regardless of frame rate chosen obviously to get the best audio possible you would be recording externally to a quality multi-channel recorder, a Sound Devices unit or something similar. Most time it is 48/24 though some professional audio studios opt for 32, or even higher bit rates, depending on their systems and software. The higher accuracy offered by the higher rates makes for better final recording and mixing in the final mastering process.

If you don't have a big budget and want to make life and synchronization as simple as possible I would suggest you look at something like Tentacle Sync to keep it all together especially if using a mirrorless like a GH5. Tentacle is good for about 1 frame drift in 24 hours. Tentacle supports LTC Time code to SMPTE-12M Standard with SMPTE Timecode Rates of: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 29.97DF and 30 FPS. You use Tentacle Sync Studio (macOS) to import all audio and vision. You then sync audio and vision and then export either new files with embedded audio or export XML or AAF files for import into an NLE or Pro Tools for further/final post production. The latter is the most likely way you would go for a full audio lay up and audio sweetening post sessions.

Tentacle Sync E - YouTube
Tentacle Sync Studio Tutorial - Overview - YouTube

There are other sync options like UltraSync ONE and NanoLockit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=9QBKTla8o2U

Re the 2.20:1 aspect ratio?? Why 2.20:1. Oddly enough this was originally a 50's ratio for 70mm film. Sounds like you aim to shoot Anamorphic? If yes then normally this would be shot in 4:3 using an anamorphic lens to horizontally compress all footage into a 4:3 frame. Another anamorphic lens on the movie theatre projector corrects, decompresses the picture.
Many movies with aspect ratios of 1.85:1 in the USA or 1.66:1 in Europe are made using the more flexible and cheaper matte technique, This means filming and projecting without any expensive special lenses. The movie is produced in 1.375 format, and then the resulting image is simply cropped in post-production or the theater's projector to fit the desired aspect ratio of 1.85:1 or 1.66:1 or whatever is desired. Besides costing less, the main advantage of the matte technique is that it leaves you with the original footage areas that got cropped out for the theatrical release which can then be used in preference to pan-and-scan techniques when producing for DVD releases. A lot of things to consider in pre-production if your end product is being aimed at theatrical release and let's say 16:9 for television and DVD/BD.

A big undertaking. As I say a lot to consider but planned out correctly totally achievable I believe. More power to you.

Chris Young
Sydney

Oh okay thanks.

I checked my field recorder I usually use the Fostex FR2-LE, and it only goes as high as 24bit unfortunately. I was told that 24bit is good for industry standard at a class I took, but if 32bit is better, is it worth getting or will most audiences tell the difference?

Thanks for informing me of Tentacle, I am checking it out!

As for editing my footage in 23.976 and then conforming the final edit, wouldn't it be better if I edited on a 24 fps timeline, because then all the footage being imported onto the timeline, would then be conformed, from the start? Or will the audio not be conformed with it, when I import the audio on, and a 24 fps timeline, only works for conforming video, and not audio?


As for thinking of shooting in 2.20:1, I just like the aspect ratio shape. I don't want to shoot in anamorphic lenses. I don't mind anamorphic, it's just almost no DP or camera operators I know have them, so I figure since most seem to have spherical, I'll go with spherical. I just like the 2.20:1 aspect ratio shape for the story.

I find that 2.39:1 looks good for some shots, but may be a little too wide for some shots, where as 2.20:1 may be just right. But I can shoot the project in 2.39:1 if that's better for any reasons? It seems that 2.39:1 is more preferred and more popular but would 2.20:1 cause any problems?

As for panning and scanning for DVD releases, I haven't seen a DVD that has been panned and scanned in years. All DVDs now seem to preserve the original aspect ratio, the movie was shot in, and I have never seen a 'full screen' dvd since the 2000s. Unless I am wrong and they still release pan and scan DVDs of some movies, to some customers? But if they want pan and scanned DVDs, and if the feature film makes it that far, then I'm guessing it would be up to the person who makes the DVDs, to do the panning and scanning, and not me, right?

[Christopher Young]

Look 24-bit is fine.

Re:
"As for editing my footage in 23.976 and then conforming the final edit, wouldn't it be better if I edited on a 24 fps timeline, because then all the footage being imported onto the timeline, would then be conformed, from the start? Or will the audio not be conformed with it, when I import the audio on, and a 24 fps timeline, only works for conforming video, and not audio?"

On this I couldn't comment as I've never tried to do it this way. I guess it's a matter of sucking it and seeing what the results are with some fairly intensive tests. I've always had true 24p footage and edited on a 24 fps timeline and never had any issues.

Chris Young

[Brian Drysdale]

23.976 fps is used in NTSC countries, 24fps works in PAL countries because you don't have the baggage of history regarding encoding the colour with NTSC.

I would keep to a standard aspect ratio because you know it's going to be available at the festivals and a non standard aspect ration could cause issues if trying to sell the film. It can just become a reason for them to say no.

If you really want 2.20:1, I would put black pillars on either side, but in the real world you usually have to work within the constraints of dealing with projectionists who may not be equipped or interested in changing the aspect ratio settings for one film. For that reason I would use 2.39:1, you don't need anamorphic lenses to shoot it.

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Oh okay thanks.

I checked my field recorder I usually use the Fostex FR2-LE, and it only goes as high as 24bit unfortunately. I was told that 24bit is good for industry standard at a class I took, but if 32bit is better, is it worth getting or will most audiences tell the difference?

Word length ("bit depth") determines noise floor (which constrains S/N and DR). Sixteen bits generally gives sufficiently low noise floor for a final product, but more is needed in the recording and production process to accommodate necessary adjustments. Twenty-four bits used properly gives you a lower noise floor than any analog source by quite a large margin. Thirty-two bit floating point (with many programs moving to 64 bit floating point) is generally what's used internally in audio processing software because it has even higher S/N than 24 bit, and being floating point lets it cope with signal levels above 0dBFS.

It's extremely unlikely that recording in 24 bit will be produce any noticeable difference in the end product unless you really do something seriously wrong (very low or very high recording levels). Using a word length greater than 24 bit and using floating point are more about pleasing the audio mixer than about actual sound quality. That said, a recorder that can record in 32 float might simply sound better because it's newer and the analog stages and converters are better.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I thought maybe aspect ratio was easy to change though, whenever a movie with an unusual aspect ratio comes out like The Hateful Eight, La La Land, or Rogue One, the projectionists at the theater don't seem to have any problem with them, and these theater projectionists, are just trained on the job, and still no how to do it, in theaters all over the world, so I didn't think it was difficult or a nuisance.

Do they have to hire a more advanced projectionist, at theater if they want to properly screen a movie like The Hateful Eight or La La Land?

[Brian Drysdale]

In the average multiplex it's not going to be anything special, they might reduce the height of the digital image i.e. letterbox it before distribution if it's shot 2.55:1 or 2.76 : 1. Today, many cinemas use the same screen width regardless of it's an 1..85 or 2.39 aspect film, in the past the curtains opened out for the scope films, so the screen was much wider and bigger.

So, the net result is that 1.85:1 has a much larger projected image in many multiplexes,. The flagship cinemas tend to have the traditional arrangement and you will have skilled projectionists there (especially if projecting 70mm film), in multiplexes it could be anyone, since they are pretty automated these days and the one person will be responsible for all the screens.