Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, but I didn't have the autofocus on in the video. If I put the autofocus on, then the lens cannot zoom back as fast, and it does it slower. The only way to do a crash zoom is to take the autofocus off. So it definitely was off. I just did another test to make sure, and the manual focus is on, and it still goes out of focus during the zoom.

But I feel that the question I asked is not really being answered though if that's okay. My question is how to pull focus during a zoom, not don't do the zoom cause I don't know how to pull focus. I am asking how, if that's okay :).

[Pete Cofrancesco]

While I don’t work in Hollywood as far as I understand stand it they don’t use autofocus, there is a dedicated person whos only job is to “pull” focus. They might be next to the camera or using a remote to control it. Often there is a geared mechanism attached to the lens.

All of this is moot because either your camera and or lens is interfering with should be happening. In addition you are also hung up on using a crash zoom when it’s not necessary. For example take a look at any of the classic spaghetti westerns by Sergio Leone who use direct cut to a super close up. If you take the time to watch any movie you will find very few zooms.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. But I'm not using autofocus! Why do people who see this clip say think I am using autofocus? There is no autofocus being used. I am free to pull focus but yet no one wants to explain how, during a zoom it seems.

The thing about Sergio Leone's movies though is that you know where the person is in the far away shot cause they are right there in the middle of nowhere, clearly seen.

Where as in mine, the guy is hiding behind a door, in a parking garage full of pillars, with other people hiding behind them waiting to ambush him.

So in mine, you will not be able to see where the guy is in the far wide shot if I do a cut, cause there is too much else in the room to see and, compared to a Leone movie.

The audience will likely loose their sense of orientation if I jump cut back so wide from a close up I feel, cause they cannot clearly see the character in the wide cause he is hiding, where as a zoom will reveal where he is compared to everyone else geographically.

Plus how do other people pull focus on a verifocal lens? In this film riot video they do a crash zoom with a DSLR verifocal at 4:41 into the video:

The Difference Between Dolly & Zoom Shots - YouTube

If you look at the zoom lens they are using on the DSLR it is not a parfocal lens, so how they pulling focus during the zoom, or what are they doing?

I just feel like my question isn't being answered, is how do I pull focus during the zoom. I didn't ask if Hollywood has focus pullers. I know they have focus pullers. I am asking HOW to do it during a zoom.

For example, when I pull focus normally I will use a grease pencil and set focus marks on the lens. But how do I do that during a zoom? The lens only goes out of focus for a fraction of a second and it's not enough time for me to set a mark, before it goes back into focus. So since I have no time to set marks during the zoom, how does a focus puller do it?

I just feel that the question I am asking is being avoided, and other resolutions are being offered, and that's fine, but I just really want to know how to pull focus for this type of shot, if that's okay. If the camera or lens is interfering with what SHOULD be happening, well what SHOULD be happening then and how can I fix that? :)

[Pete Cofrancesco]

You should reverse your approach. Understand your limitations and work back from there altering the scene to suit your limitations.

You might be surprised that what you feel won’t work might actually work. There a whole host of movies that disorient the viewer during an action scene. Instead of being a calm distant observer they are in the middle of the choas. Done right it makes the viewer feel apart of the action.

I can’t go into any more detail about pulling focus it’s a highly technical skill with specialized equipment. You would get more details on an indie film making group.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, I understand that being open to different solutions is good but it turns out that focus pulling on a verifocal lens during a zoom can be done though, according to the film riot video I posted, so how are they doing it?

[Josh Bass]

As was stated earlier that is usually done by a separate human being, the camera assistant. The pro way would be to figure out exactly where you/camera will be, where the actor youre zooming out from will be, then find a way to mark your lens where it’s in focus at the start mark of the move (the CU) and the end mark (wide). Then you have to turn the focus ring from one mark to the other as you zoom, timing the focus change to the zoom timing. A friend could do the focus ring turn as you zoom out, since you wont be able to watch the shot and the focus ring at the same time (unless youre locked off on a tripod and the composition doesnt change as the shot widens out, then you can look away from the shot to watch the focus ring, check it after you stop recording to see if you nailed it.

I’m sure there are focus pulling tutorials on the proper method on youtube.

Some folks also learn to do it by feel...if you know where your focus ring hand needs to be while holding the ring when the lens is focused at the start of the zoom, and where your hand is to be in focus at the end of the zoom, you can feel when your hand/the ring is in the right position. Apparently some pro sports shooters can do this...focus zoom and pan/tilt simultaneously while following a ball through the air or whatever. But youll have to practice. I recommend figuring out the focus points, marking lens, having friend move the ring as you zoom.

I still say, like some others have, that it’s kind of a dated technique for narrative fiction filmmaking these days. The office, modern family etc. are pseudo documentaries and are supposed to have the feel of such, so the camera zooming all over like the operator is following action he doenst know is about to happen makes sense. Not really the case in narrative. I think if all the issues you describe exist, you should rethink your approach to the cinematography of this scene/sequence. Luckily for you you live in an age where youtube and vimeo exist and there are probably a couple thousand free examples of similar scenes to inspire you on different approaches you could use.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. Sometimes I have to pull focus myself though, which I don't mind.

I usually set markers, but what I mean is how do I set markers when it only goes out of focus during the zoom. When I am not zooming it's in focus. It only goes out of focus during the zoom. So how do I figure out where the marks go when it only goes out of focus while zooming?

Like when I'm actually zooming, it's out of focus, if I stop zooming it's in focus. So how do I set markers then during a zoom? The crash zoom lasts about a fraction of a second then goes back into focus. So I only have a fraction of a second to figure out where the marks go. How does a focus puller figure out where marks are to be set, when he/she only has a fraction of a second to figure it out before the lens is back in focus. Like I will zoom back and it will go out of focus but as soon as I stop to mark the first mark, it goes back in focus all of a sudden, cause I stopped zooming. That's my dilemma that I cannot figure out is how to make focus marks while it's moving in just a fraction of a second to figure it out.

I don't think the technique is dated all the time though. I mean Rise of the Planet of the Apes came out in 2011 and that had a couple of crash zooms in during key moments. Plus in documentary style shows they are zooming cause they are not quite sure what is happening, where as mine, it's done to do a very planned reveal, so I didn't think it would come off the same way it does in a documentary.

But I posted the film riot video and they were able to pull focus on a verifocal lens while zooming it seems, so how did they do it?

[Brian Drysdale]

Some stills zoom lenses manage to keep reasonable focus, even though they aren't true parfocal zoom lenses.

The Sigma zooms may be worth checking out, their cine zooms are described as "nearly parfocal" by them, so I'd follow up by checking out the stills version of these lenses to if this applies to them. Although it may be the case that they're selecting the best lenses for their cine zooms.

However, I wouldn't generally regard zoom lenses intended for stills photography as suitable for doing zoom shots, but more as a variable focal length lens. They are missing a lens group found in cine and video lenses that maintain focus while zooming. .

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. So it's not possible at all to pull focus while zooming then?

Their is a Sigma lens that can zoom into from 18mm to 300mm but it's for APS-C format cameras only, so I would have to not shoot in full frame then, which may not be a bad thing, but I would have to buy the lens and test it for and then if it went out of focus while zooming I would have to return it. But is there any way to tell if this lens can maintain focus while zooming:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...2855/KBID/3801

As far as cutting instead of zooming for some reason this shot just feels to me that the camera should move to do a reveal rather than cut. It just feels like it should be a move. I could use the gimbal and run with it to do the reveal, but I feel my running will do the reveal too slowly compared to a crash zoom.

Therefore it was suggested on here to speed up the running movement in post and just have the actors act it out slowly. But will the audience be able to tell that the actors are faking slow movements that were sped up later?

[Josh Bass]

If it is in focus at the start and the end without you moving the focus ring at all and only goes soft during the zoolm, which is what you seem to be saying, you need a diffferent lens. But again, you are now looking to spend money to buy or rent (unless you can borrow) for a single shot in what is presumably an unpaid project that is has no guarantee of making money (please dont get mad, this is just reality with indie filmmaking).

I have been the subborn guy that insists there is only one way something should be as others have advised changing my approach, probably will be again at some point, I know how it is in your mind when you are sure youre right and everyone telling you to do things differently is wrong, but I still urge you to try to see past all that, step back, and see if there might not be another approach that accomplishes the same goal without you having a janky looking soft focus zoom or spending money to avoid it (unless youre ok with that). I will say my experience is that no one who isnt attached to the project will care nearly as much as you do. You will not have friends, family, review blogs, etc. watching your movie and saying “this movie would have been great instead of merely good if he had only used a crash zoom in that ambush scene instead of a stupid, pedestrian dolly/cut.”. We artists tend to be ossessive and I’ve definitely obsessed over minute details in personal movie and music projects that people who arent filmmakers or musicians would never care about. And thats the bog thing to remember...your audience is usually “regular” people, not other filmmakers. Regular people just want stuff to be good/entertaining...they dont know about/care about/notice cinematography and technique and theyre not really supposed to...if you get compliments on your crash zoom from non-filmmakers it usually means in that moment they were focusing on technique and not the story/world youve created, which is generally considered a filmmaking fail.

I went way down the rabbit hole on that one but this is to all to say spend money to address the issue or find another approach.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, I see what you mean. I perhaps could dolly it and just go really fast and live with the fact that it's a slower reveal, or cut it.

However, as far as regular audience goes I showed the zoom test to 4 people so far, and three of them said that they thought it going out of focus was just naturally part of the shot and it didn't bother them that it goes out of focus and then snaps back in. Only 1 out of 4 of them said it looked too weird and distracting but the other 3 that it was intentionally stylistic.

Do you think maybe I should do a crash zoom and have it go out of focus and act like it was intentional, and just own it then?

Or as far as Sigma goes, if it's true that those lenses can stay in focus while zooming, I could get the Sigma 18mm-300mm that I posted before, but does it really do that? That lens is actually cheaper so if I traded mine in, I wouldn't be loosing any money and that lens also can zoom out quite a bit further for a bigger reveal, but not sure if it actually maintains while focus while zooming.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I think it looks bad. I’m a firm believer of not doing something unless you can do it right. If this is a school project then your professor is the target audience. If you spend all your time resources on one shot the rest of it will suffer. If you’re trying to use this on your reel to get work amateur technique is going to be noticed by anyone in the industry. Like Josh said you seem obsessed by this zoom but in the big picture it’s not as important as you think it is. A ordinary viewer isn’t going to scrutinizing the details they will either like it on the whole or not. Does it visually tell a story well?

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I thought maybe they wouldn't care if the zoom was done in focus as long as the story was good maybe. I thought that when it comes to visually telling the story that a crash zoom is more effective of a real than a much slower gimbal move cause I thought the speed of it would make it more frantic for the plot situation.

But I can do the reveal with a much slower gimbal move then if I have to and if that's best then.

[Brian Drysdale]

A crash zoom like this is more television than cinematic in nature. A track has more impact, you can speed ramp it up if need be during the move, but with a wide angle lens it'll have way more energy than a zoom. .

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. I can do the track, but if I feel that it is too slow, how do I speed ramp it, exactly? Like is there any movies that a have are really fast tracking reveal shot like this, to get an idea?