Broadcast Cameras for Church

[David Dixon]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

The Panasonic is better suited for your application. The Sony models mentioned use small consumer sized bodies and lens without out a lot of reach. If you’re streaming or broadcasting or plan to do either in the future you need to consider how the cameras and mixer will be connected hdmi or sdi.

I agree that the OP has not really told us details like this. However, only the AX series Sonys are considered consumer models. The X70 and Z90 are in Sony's XDCAM pro line, and do allow streaming, XLRs, hdmi, and sdi. They also have a 12x zoom vs. 15x on the Panasonic, but also include the excellent Clear Image Zoom. That's a sensor zoom, not a digital zoom, and retains excellent quality up to 24x.

The OP just needs to do more research on what fits his needs.

[Brock Burwell]

Thanks for all the comments.

Our cameras are currently hooked up via HD-SDI. We currently stream to Facebook and to YouTube each service. We also record every service and mix it with vMix live.

Here is a quick sample of what our services look like with our current setup.

YouTube (Short URL)

[Andrew Smith]

With that many people on stage during the singing section of the service (20:34) it's definitely a Pentecostal church. :-)

You seem to be doing quite well as it is when it comes to footage apart from getting a proper close up shot of the preacher.

Andrew

[Brock Burwell]

Hahaha yep definitely Pentecostal!

So that service was with one person on our main camera and me switching upstairs while also remotely controlling a camera from up there as well. We had two cameras that were unmanned that service.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

looked good. I can see what you mean about the audience being dark.

[Ervin Farkas]

Brock,

I second the X70s from Sony. I use them for years now, not in a church setting, but in lots of low light situations. Their picture is clean, even at over +20dB gain. You can find them slightly used or as new/store returns for $1300-1500 a piece.

[David Peterson]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

I know it’s hard to know the fine details about every camera, but would you suggest these Sony’s over the Panasonic UX90?

For your purposes? Yes.

Even though technically many would see it has a "better camera" (well... maybe, debatably).

For two key reasons:

1) SDI output! Important for any kind of lengthy cable runs, rather than dealing with HDMI

2) these are much cheaper on eBay! And I know a church would have a tight budget, and the likes of an F3 or EX3 are still very fine cameras.

Originally Posted by David Barnett

Might I suggest a Sony X70 or X90? Camcorder build & ergonomics, power zoom, no worries about external lenses, HDMI & SDI out, 1" sensor, full manual controls, Multi Interface port for external/tripod zoom handle.

You could go with 1 or 2 X70s for the 'main' cameras, then AX100 for the secondary. Same camera essentially, with less manual control buttons & no SDI.

Yes, if I was buying new I'd probably go the path of a mix of X70/AX100 cameras.

(AX100 lack the SDI output, but short HDMI runs are fine enough if you're using the AX100 only for the cameras closest to the live video desk)

[Roger Van Duyn]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

So my church has been shooting, recording and broadcasting our services for years. I'd say 5 or 6 years ago we started broadcasting in HD and my pastor just recently came to me and mentioned updating to all new cameras (we currently have 4 camcorders). He asked me to do some research, but I have no idea what to look for. Our budget is probably between $1,000 and $1,500 per cameras. They are all stationary on tripods. Also, our sanctuary is dark at times so we'd like to have some good low light ability. We won't need to shoot in 4K, but we do want a nice high quality image. I've looked at some Black Magic cameras and they look really nice, but obviously I'm open to recommendations

Any suggestions?

Hi Brock,

My church is again preparing to upgrade our video capabilities. Last time, the church was sold a bunch of expensive, already obsolete at that time, crap. That bothered me greatly.

This time, I've been contributing my two cents to the process. For a long time, I kept mentioning the lighting, especially in the nave (where the services are held). Guess what, they listened and changed the lighting. HUGE, major, major improvement with very little outlay of funds.

Again, HUGE. Whatever camera you are using, good light really helps.

Second, I've been talking about not buying into obsolescence. Everything is being networked. Even video. I streamed a funeral service for a a friend on Facetime using her phone. Relatives a thousand miles away watched live. The old approach cannot do that. I'm stressing that video over IP is the way to go. I've read lot's of new stuff shown at NAB last couple of years. SDI is just about obsolete.

Check out this video:

YouTube (Short URL)

[Noa Put]

This time, I've been contributing my two cents to the process. For a long time, I kept mentioning the lighting, especially in the nave (where the services are held). Guess what, they listened and changed the lighting. HUGE, major, major improvement with very little outlay of funds.

This.


After seeing Brocks video and taking into consideration there is only a very limited budget for new camera's it doesn't make much sense to "upgrade" if the current camera's still perform well, the XL-H1 was a semi-professional camera that if sold today (but with a modern codec) would be at least a 6K camera.


Upgrading the lights would be much more cost efficient and make the service look that much better, those xl-h1 need light and once you provide that they can deliver a excellent image.

[Owen Dawe]

Some of the footage looks good. Some not so good.

You need to ask a few hard questions first.

Why does the pastor want new cameras? Does he hope this move will increase the size of the audience?

What is the reason for your streaming? Is it so people who attend your church can see it at home if they're sick, or just can't be bothered going to church that day? If that's the case what you have is probably good enough.

Or is it to attract non Christians or people who don't attend your church? Then I'm sorry to say you have quite a few issues to tackle. Not just cameras. I've had quite a bit to do with christian television and getting church services broadcast. Content is King. Not sometimes, but ALWAYS! An hour and a half in length. Fine for the people who know your church. But for outsiders. It's boring. Frightfully boring. I'm used to watching hours of christian television services, but I couldn't sit through all yours for several reasons. I just had to skim through.

Let's look at content. The worship music. Far far too long. I assume you are in the U.S. For me sitting on the other side of the world the worship was lacklustre to the extreme. Live music is very very hard to pull off. The average church just can't do it. Acoustics of the venue are an issue, You need polished performance from your musicians. The singers lacked energy, swaying back and forth as though they were mesmerized. Worship music is a hard call to broadcast. Either do it properly or don't.

There was a ministry segment. Cut this bit much shorter, or out all together. Audio too low.

The sermon. The best part. The pastor could hold an audience but the production just let him down badly. He did need to make more connection with the viewer though. Shots too wide, he walked out of the light, face poorly lit.

Not enough closeups. All shot far to wide. The lighting as stated before. Not at all good. Faces poorly lit, shadows on faces. Little or no back light. or rim light you may call it. Added to that the cameras were not always in focus. You can't just set a camera up, focus it, then let it run for an hour and a half. As the camera warms up focus will begin to drift.

So finally the cameras. I'm very familiar with the Canon XL range. I made 26 half hour programs on three xl1 years ago. I'm very familiar with the xl2 and xlh1 series as well. If you are using xl h1s cameras with uncompressed sdi you should be getting a far, far better picture than you are getting.

More light. Focus the cameras. You may need a better monitor if you are using the viewfinder on the cameras. I'm shooting some God spots on xlh1s at the moment recording uncompressed sdi to Blackmagic video assist monitor recorders. They have a focus assist feature. You will be surprised how sharp a picture you can get.

Sorry I've been a bit hard on you but I'm passionate about broadcasting the christian message.

God Bless,
Owen.

[Andrew Smith]

Owen speaks the truth and plenty of it. I second his thoughts.

Back in what I think was the 1990s, there was a large church I was attending where they must have decided it would be a really good thing to have 45 minutes of praise+worship songs at the beginning of the service. So what did I do? A carpooling friend and myself decided to deliberately arrive 30 min late so we only had to endure the last 15 minutes of it.

Here's the kicker ... we soon noticed that others were doing this as well.

Eventually the church heads must have noticed the pattern and things were changed. Not before a significant chunk of time had passed.

I certainly noticed that your music audio was probably the house PA feed. Truth is you need a dedicated mix if you're going to have it sound good.

Looking forward to hearing what the pastor wants to achieve.

Andrew

PS. How many worship leaders does it take to change a light bulb? Only one. They stand there and hold it whilst the world revolves around them. :-)

[Chris Harding]

I have to agree with Owen too ... replacing cameras only is like putting racing stripes on your car and hoping it will go faster!! You really need the pastor to look at the overall system and decide what needs to change.

Owen has mentioned content and it's so important to make a production that people will want to actually watch but this sadly might touch a few nerves with the pastor. However if you are going to stream out a service to others the content has to be something that will appeal to them ... As a live stream videographer myself I often cringe at some of the content I have to record and broadcast at wedding reception of which I have no control ..wedding ceremonies run to a fairly exact program so they are often more appreciated but the audience. You really need to update your audio as it's just as important as video and with the sample you posted the level is horribily low which won't go down well with viewers at all. I would seriously look at both audio and lighting before even thinking about cameras!

Yes as Noa says .. sort out the lighting it will be the fraction of the cost of 3 new cameras and make a HUGE difference!! .. Maybe overall look at your topic not as "Broadcast Cameras for Church" but as " Upgrade our Worship Broadcast" .. Update the overall environment in which the current cameras have to operate and you might just find you don't need to update the cameras at all??

[David Peterson]

Owen preached the truth.

However I have disagree with the earlier "obsolescence" point.
SDI is an industry standard, all you need is an video switcher with SDI inputs.
And for people on a budget there can be MASSIVE savings by buying secondhand from a generation or two ago rather than buying the "latest and greatest" new products.

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Andrew Smith

With that many people on stage during the singing section of the service (20:34) it's definitely a Pentecostal church. :-)

You seem to be doing quite well as it is when it comes to footage apart from getting a proper close up shot of the preacher.

Andrew

So do you think this is not close enough? This is traditionally where our camera operator leaves the shot during the sermon. I think they do this because he tends to move around and this makes it easier to follow him, but you are saying we should move it closer? I'm just clarifying

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Owen Dawe

Some of the footage looks good. Some not so good.

You need to ask a few hard questions first.

Why does the pastor want new cameras? Does he hope this move will increase the size of the audience?

What is the reason for your streaming? Is it so people who attend your church can see it at home if they're sick, or just can't be bothered going to church that day? If that's the case what you have is probably good enough.

Or is it to attract non Christians or people who don't attend your church? Then I'm sorry to say you have quite a few issues to tackle. Not just cameras. I've had quite a bit to do with christian television and getting church services broadcast. Content is King. Not sometimes, but ALWAYS! An hour and a half in length. Fine for the people who know your church. But for outsiders. It's boring. Frightfully boring. I'm used to watching hours of christian television services, but I couldn't sit through all yours for several reasons. I just had to skim through.

Let's look at content. The worship music. Far far too long. I assume you are in the U.S. For me sitting on the other side of the world the worship was lacklustre to the extreme. Live music is very very hard to pull off. The average church just can't do it. Acoustics of the venue are an issue, You need polished performance from your musicians. The singers lacked energy, swaying back and forth as though they were mesmerized. Worship music is a hard call to broadcast. Either do it properly or don't.

There was a ministry segment. Cut this bit much shorter, or out all together. Audio too low.

The sermon. The best part. The pastor could hold an audience but the production just let him down badly. He did need to make more connection with the viewer though. Shots too wide, he walked out of the light, face poorly lit.

Not enough closeups. All shot far to wide. The lighting as stated before. Not at all good. Faces poorly lit, shadows on faces. Little or no back light. or rim light you may call it. Added to that the cameras were not always in focus. You can't just set a camera up, focus it, then let it run for an hour and a half. As the camera warms up focus will begin to drift.

So finally the cameras. I'm very familiar with the Canon XL range. I made 26 half hour programs on three xl1 years ago. I'm very familiar with the xl2 and xlh1 series as well. If you are using xl h1s cameras with uncompressed sdi you should be getting a far, far better picture than you are getting.

More light. Focus the cameras. You may need a better monitor if you are using the viewfinder on the cameras. I'm shooting some God spots on xlh1s at the moment recording uncompressed sdi to Blackmagic video assist monitor recorders. They have a focus assist feature. You will be surprised how sharp a picture you can get.

Sorry I've been a bit hard on you but I'm passionate about broadcasting the christian message.

God Bless,
Owen.

Thanks Owen for your detailed response. I'm looking forward to helping our church move in the right direction and this is exactly the type of response I needed.

As for our services and it's format, there's not too much I can do. They kind of do their own thing. This broadcast is streamed on our facebook page and youtube and often gets shared by our members. It's biggest use is letting people watch who can't be in service that day, have moved or consider themselves part of us but don't actually attend. We have had random people come to us because of these broadcasts, so that is obviously part of it as well. I say all that to say - these services aren't really edited - we do an edited TV show once per week that's 28 minutes and much more condensed. For that, we remove the music and only have the sermon. What I linked to earlier was simply a live stream of our service which we do three times per week.

Great suggestions on the sermon and how the pastor walked in an out of the light and how we could light him better. I mentioned this to him yesterday and he was 100% on board with starting with all new lights and making sure it looks the best it can before we consider new cameras. So in your recommendation, we need some rim light and better stage lights that will evenly light the stage and remove shadows? Currently our stage lights are pretty close to the stage, so perhaps if we move them back a bit, that would help with shadows. Pastor mentioned getting some LED lights, do you think this is OK? Any suggestions on what type of lights we consider getting?

Part of our issue with our shot selection is we have 4 cameras but rarely have camera operators. I run one upstairs and we almost always have someone on the camera straight back, but we rarely have someone on our side cameras. I think eventually we will get to a system where we get new cameras and just run them all remotely, but we aren't there yet unfortunately

I'll have to look into the focusing issue - thanks for bringing that up.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, this is great