Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?

Dave Blackhurst · May 13th, 2017, 03:42 AM

Most telling, if the manufacturers stop making VIDEO cameras for the consumer market, that's all there is to it.

No demand = no sales = no market to serve = no more camcorders.... it's not rocket science.... no one makes 8 track tape players anymore, AFAIK.

There is still a market for "enthusiast" level cameras with higher image quality and traditional camera controls, as well as a professional market, but we are talking lower production numbers, and higher prices that the average consumer will not be interested in paying when his iGalaxy 12 just was advertised with all the whiz bang bells and whistles and takes "pretty good" pictures and video.

Compare "pretty good" of today with "professional" of just a few years ago, and you can see why manufacturers are not likely to be putting a lot of development into dedicated devices when the consumer expects more from their phone, probably takes 99% of their photos and video with it, and has for a while now.

Donald McPherson · May 13th, 2017, 04:42 AM

So what's the difference? Camcorders have bigger lenses and sensors. Why not use the electronics from the phone and the sensor and lens together. Would not me much bigger than a good SLR zoom lens.

Chris Harding · May 13th, 2017, 05:05 AM

It would probably make a lot more economical sense to make a super sensitive sensor in a phone but make the case so you can slide on an adapter that will take dslr lenses ...you could do the same the a viewfinder and that could be smaller production runs as the base phone is the mass produced one.

"Turn your Galaxy 15 - 12K phone into a 12K professional video camera with our simple adapters!"

It's all about the market demand of course and the manufacturers are really only interested in big sales not pleasing a small group of enthusiasts,, sad but true

Steven Digges · May 13th, 2017, 12:03 PM

Seth, Sorry buddy, but your theory that our advanced audio skills might save us from the cell phone is dead. I can now throw away my 9 foot boom and Senni shotgun mic. As I write this there is a $50.00 cell phone boom pole with its own mic built onto the end of it. But wait! At the moment it is in the Deal Zone today at B&H for $17.00. The end is here. We are all doomed!!!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...one_stick.html

Steve

Seth Bloombaum · May 13th, 2017, 02:43 PM

Och.

Maybe the next great innovation will be like the Cinamaker system, but designed to sync in the smartphones we'll use for sound only. Smartphone on a stick!

What I'm getting from this rambling discussion is that when you have a computer in your pocket, hardware will matter less and less. The power is in using software to harness some basic hardware.

I'll repeat for those that have claimed a phone will never match the capabilities of a prosumer/pro camcorder because it's all automatic that a $15 app *will* let you lock focus, rack focus, manual focus, lock exposure, paint/lock white balance, etc. And rack digital zoom, with a little "bad resolution" flag if you try to go too far. That's Filmic Pro. It's really quite impressive.

Customized cases allowing more stable attachment of wide and tele lenses - already on the market.

Chris Harding · May 13th, 2017, 07:57 PM

What hurts Steve is that you could probably kit yourself out with a bunch of Galaxy 8 Plus phones, audio sticks and also shoot live stream too all for less than the price you paid for your Senni!!

Oh well we are at least old enough to "semi-retire" if things get to bad ... the young guys moving into this field will probably never even know that a video camera looked like.

I guess I need to sell my Lumix cameras now and live stream with a phone and Mevo camera .. seems to be the way things are going!!

Steven Digges · May 13th, 2017, 08:41 PM

Does not hurt me a bit. I am only looking at stuff in this thread for the jokes and banter. At least for now, my market is safe from any moron that wants to compete with me and use a phone. Its years away from being a consideration.

I have allays had an absolute rule about never talking about money. A post on this forum is going to change my mind about that. My website sucks it always has because I don't really need it, or so I thought. I put zero time and effort into it (big mistake). .My work comes word of mouth because I do not deal with the general public. Listening to Doug Jensen's recent posts and looking at his website has totally changed my mind. It is not unusual for me and an assistant to fly out for a one day interview or continuing medical education shoot and I charge $10,000.00 for it. Anyone with a cell phone or other cheap stuff does not work in my market. And my clients know the 10G is a bargain. I charge less than my real world competition. My point is, if thats what I charge, and I do, I should explain it on my website and use it to my advantage.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Chris Harding · May 13th, 2017, 09:54 PM

Just teasing Steve!

I know you are not only set up for high end corporate work but you are also well established in your market too. Since your work is mostly word of mouth and very corporate surely you don't need extra business from a website anyway?

I couldn't imagine someone like you cruising into a huge organisation with a cell phone or two anyway!!

As mentioned before my cell exploits are limited to answering a couple of calls a week and that's it!! I think I must I must be one of the few people left who actually uses my phone as a phone!

Mark Watson · May 13th, 2017, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Just teasing Steve!

As mentioned before my cell exploits are limited to answering a couple of calls a week and that's it!! I think I must I must be one of the few people left who actually uses my phone as a phone!

I'm just the opposite. I carry a clamshell design dumb phone for taking calls. I only bought a smartphone recently because I needed one for the DJI Osmo. I don't give out the number for that phone, so it sits in a drawer, turned off, unless I need it for an application. I also use it if I'm taking a road trip and need the navigation help. The dumb phone can do all I need.

I am giving citizens the benefit of the doubt for now, but I swear, the smarter the phones get, the dumber the people seem to get. Walking into the street with their eyes glued to that screen, fondling it like it's a life support system.

We're all doomed, doomed I tell you!

W, out!

Andrew Smith · May 13th, 2017, 11:12 PM

Probably a good thing that there is a more readily identifiable medium for the vidiots to get excited about and latch on to. If they are using mobile phones for video then it can only be good for the rest of us.

... unless clients can't tell the difference.

Andrew

Brian Drysdale · May 14th, 2017, 01:27 AM

There are a number of issues and restrictions that can arise when shooting with mobile phone.

Variable frame rates are a reoccurring issue for professional NLEs, although I gather FCPX will handle iPhones. FilmPro seems to improve things by controlling the exposure, so the phone isn't using the frame rate to control exposure, although I gather it's not perfect.

The physics will limit sensitivity because of the small sensor size, so noise will be an issue in low light levels.

If you're into shallow depth of field, just wait for the ground glass adapters as per the 1/3" video cameras!! However, there are software solutions available, although these may not suit everyone or those with more demanding tastes.

The codec is highly compressed, so artifacts can arise, especially on larger screens..

There is an element of fashion in this, the same thing happened with 1/3" camcorders being used on TV productions, even when they were not the best choice for a particular production.

Dave Blackhurst · May 14th, 2017, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Watson

the smarter the phones get, the dumber the people seem to get.

Yep, that pretty much covers it....

Dave Blackhurst · May 14th, 2017, 05:29 PM

To be entirely realistic, you can't expect a small, tightly integrated sensor/lens camera module in a cell phone with additional bandwidth/storage limitations to match ALL the capabilities of a larger DEDICATED camera.

It comes back to what is "gud enuf" for "Joe dance dad" and "Jane soccer mom"... and the companies designing the smart phone camera modules pack as many bells and whistles into them as possible, so that the new whiz bang cell phone advertisement can say "LOW LIGHT", and if "bokeh" ever goes mainstream, you know we'll see that in a cell phone ad too...

I don't pretend that the camera module in any of the smart phones I've owned is a "professional" camera (then again, I don't buy top of the line smart phones either, for the most part). BUT, if I need to shoot something, it's right there in my pocket, and yep, I DO use it for convenience (AKA I'm not getting paid, or it's a "casual" situation). Are the results "good enough"? For most people, the answer is yes, I can compose and squeeze off "good" pix and video...

I'll toss in a curveball to fire up the thread... IMO, a PROFESSIONAL can get good results on ANY capture device, if that's what's at hand.... even if it's not the greatest capture device ever made. AND you can hand a thousand monkeys a thousand "pro" cameras... and you get YouTube! <wink>

Chris Harding · May 14th, 2017, 08:02 PM

It's not always the camera Dave, but who is behind the camera that really counts . From what I have seen of cell phone users doing "selfies" we have absolutely nothing to worry about.

I quite often have a quiet chuckle to myself when I'm doing wedding speeches about 15' directly in front of the podium complete with a softbox lighting the area and I spot a guest at a very remote table near the back sitting down with his palmcoder in his hand filming the same as what I'm doing. I even offered one guy to come up and stand next to me so at least he could take advantage of my lighting but he politely refused saying he was fine sitting at his table.

Chris Harding · May 14th, 2017, 08:07 PM

Hi Mark

Love that comment of yours! We currently have an ad on National TV with a guy trying to set up all the menus of his new Samsung Smart TV .... his neighbour casually passes by the window and offers some advice and the correct sequence to start it up to which the guy replies "Yea I have done all that... over and over and it does nothing" .... Final bit is the neighbour asking "You have turned it on haven't you? "

I don't think we have any issues with people like that around us!!

May 13th, 2017, 03:42 AM	#76
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Most telling, if the manufacturers stop making VIDEO cameras for the consumer market, that's all there is to it. No demand = no sales = no market to serve = no more camcorders.... it's not rocket science.... no one makes 8 track tape players anymore, AFAIK. There is still a market for "enthusiast" level cameras with higher image quality and traditional camera controls, as well as a professional market, but we are talking lower production numbers, and higher prices that the average consumer will not be interested in paying when his iGalaxy 12 just was advertised with all the whiz bang bells and whistles and takes "pretty good" pictures and video. Compare "pretty good" of today with "professional" of just a few years ago, and you can see why manufacturers are not likely to be putting a lot of development into dedicated devices when the consumer expects more from their phone, probably takes 99% of their photos and video with it, and has for a while now.

May 13th, 2017, 04:42 AM	#77
Donald McPherson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Aberdeen Scotland Posts: 815	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? So what's the difference? Camcorders have bigger lenses and sensors. Why not use the electronics from the phone and the sensor and lens together. Would not me much bigger than a good SLR zoom lens.

May 13th, 2017, 05:05 AM	#78
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? It would probably make a lot more economical sense to make a super sensitive sensor in a phone but make the case so you can slide on an adapter that will take dslr lenses ...you could do the same the a viewfinder and that could be smaller production runs as the base phone is the mass produced one. "Turn your Galaxy 15 - 12K phone into a 12K professional video camera with our simple adapters!" It's all about the market demand of course and the manufacturers are really only interested in big sales not pleasing a small group of enthusiasts,, sad but true

May 13th, 2017, 12:03 PM	#79
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Seth, Sorry buddy, but your theory that our advanced audio skills might save us from the cell phone is dead. I can now throw away my 9 foot boom and Senni shotgun mic. As I write this there is a $50.00 cell phone boom pole with its own mic built onto the end of it. But wait! At the moment it is in the Deal Zone today at B&H for $17.00. The end is here. We are all doomed!!! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...one_stick.html Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

May 13th, 2017, 02:43 PM	#80
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Och. Maybe the next great innovation will be like the Cinamaker system, but designed to sync in the smartphones we'll use for sound only. Smartphone on a stick! What I'm getting from this rambling discussion is that when you have a computer in your pocket, hardware will matter less and less. The power is in using software to harness some basic hardware. I'll repeat for those that have claimed a phone will never match the capabilities of a prosumer/pro camcorder because it's all automatic that a $15 app will let you lock focus, rack focus, manual focus, lock exposure, paint/lock white balance, etc. And rack digital zoom, with a little "bad resolution" flag if you try to go too far. That's Filmic Pro. It's really quite impressive. Customized cases allowing more stable attachment of wide and tele lenses - already on the market. __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.

May 13th, 2017, 07:57 PM	#81
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? What hurts Steve is that you could probably kit yourself out with a bunch of Galaxy 8 Plus phones, audio sticks and also shoot live stream too all for less than the price you paid for your Senni!! Oh well we are at least old enough to "semi-retire" if things get to bad ... the young guys moving into this field will probably never even know that a video camera looked like. I guess I need to sell my Lumix cameras now and live stream with a phone and Mevo camera .. seems to be the way things are going!!

May 13th, 2017, 08:41 PM	#82
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Does not hurt me a bit. I am only looking at stuff in this thread for the jokes and banter. At least for now, my market is safe from any moron that wants to compete with me and use a phone. Its years away from being a consideration. I have allays had an absolute rule about never talking about money. A post on this forum is going to change my mind about that. My website sucks it always has because I don't really need it, or so I thought. I put zero time and effort into it (big mistake). .My work comes word of mouth because I do not deal with the general public. Listening to Doug Jensen's recent posts and looking at his website has totally changed my mind. It is not unusual for me and an assistant to fly out for a one day interview or continuing medical education shoot and I charge $10,000.00 for it. Anyone with a cell phone or other cheap stuff does not work in my market. And my clients know the 10G is a bargain. I charge less than my real world competition. My point is, if thats what I charge, and I do, I should explain it on my website and use it to my advantage. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

May 13th, 2017, 09:54 PM	#83
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Just teasing Steve! I know you are not only set up for high end corporate work but you are also well established in your market too. Since your work is mostly word of mouth and very corporate surely you don't need extra business from a website anyway? I couldn't imagine someone like you cruising into a huge organisation with a cell phone or two anyway!! As mentioned before my cell exploits are limited to answering a couple of calls a week and that's it!! I think I must I must be one of the few people left who actually uses my phone as a phone!

May 13th, 2017, 11:12 PM	#85
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,064	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Probably a good thing that there is a more readily identifiable medium for the vidiots to get excited about and latch on to. If they are using mobile phones for video then it can only be good for the rest of us. ... unless clients can't tell the difference. Andrew

May 14th, 2017, 01:27 AM	#86
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? There are a number of issues and restrictions that can arise when shooting with mobile phone. Variable frame rates are a reoccurring issue for professional NLEs, although I gather FCPX will handle iPhones. FilmPro seems to improve things by controlling the exposure, so the phone isn't using the frame rate to control exposure, although I gather it's not perfect. The physics will limit sensitivity because of the small sensor size, so noise will be an issue in low light levels. If you're into shallow depth of field, just wait for the ground glass adapters as per the 1/3" video cameras!! However, there are software solutions available, although these may not suit everyone or those with more demanding tastes. The codec is highly compressed, so artifacts can arise, especially on larger screens.. There is an element of fashion in this, the same thing happened with 1/3" camcorders being used on TV productions, even when they were not the best choice for a particular production.

May 14th, 2017, 05:29 PM	#88
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? To be entirely realistic, you can't expect a small, tightly integrated sensor/lens camera module in a cell phone with additional bandwidth/storage limitations to match ALL the capabilities of a larger DEDICATED camera. It comes back to what is "gud enuf" for "Joe dance dad" and "Jane soccer mom"... and the companies designing the smart phone camera modules pack as many bells and whistles into them as possible, so that the new whiz bang cell phone advertisement can say "LOW LIGHT", and if "bokeh" ever goes mainstream, you know we'll see that in a cell phone ad too... I don't pretend that the camera module in any of the smart phones I've owned is a "professional" camera (then again, I don't buy top of the line smart phones either, for the most part). BUT, if I need to shoot something, it's right there in my pocket, and yep, I DO use it for convenience (AKA I'm not getting paid, or it's a "casual" situation). Are the results "good enough"? For most people, the answer is yes, I can compose and squeeze off "good" pix and video... I'll toss in a curveball to fire up the thread... IMO, a PROFESSIONAL can get good results on ANY capture device, if that's what's at hand.... even if it's not the greatest capture device ever made. AND you can hand a thousand monkeys a thousand "pro" cameras... and you get YouTube! <wink>

May 14th, 2017, 08:02 PM	#89
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? It's not always the camera Dave, but who is behind the camera that really counts . From what I have seen of cell phone users doing "selfies" we have absolutely nothing to worry about. I quite often have a quiet chuckle to myself when I'm doing wedding speeches about 15' directly in front of the podium complete with a softbox lighting the area and I spot a guest at a very remote table near the back sitting down with his palmcoder in his hand filming the same as what I'm doing. I even offered one guy to come up and stand next to me so at least he could take advantage of my lighting but he politely refused saying he was fine sitting at his table.

May 14th, 2017, 08:07 PM	#90
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras? Hi Mark Love that comment of yours! We currently have an ad on National TV with a guy trying to set up all the menus of his new Samsung Smart TV .... his neighbour casually passes by the window and offers some advice and the correct sequence to start it up to which the guy replies "Yea I have done all that... over and over and it does nothing" .... Final bit is the neighbour asking "You have turned it on haven't you? " I don't think we have any issues with people like that around us!!