Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio?

Chris Harding · September 4th, 2016, 08:42 PM

Hey Josh

You hit the nail on the head when you talked about turning 3 weeks into 3 days. We are now doing all our wedding shoots with live broadcast and live mixing. For us a shoot of 8 hours and edit of 20 hours now turns into just a shoot of 8 hours. Time is often a lot more costly than gear .. If you work out your actual cost of spending 3 weeks on a project versus 3 days ..a one off capital expense will pay for itself over and over again and you might also have a bit of time for yourself too!!

Charles Papert · September 4th, 2016, 08:46 PM

One last thing on the Decimator, there is an available Mac and PC control panel which greatly speeds up changing settings. And it also can function as a 1x4 distribution amp, as well as HDMI to SDI (or reverse) cross convertor. Good stuff.

Josh Hayes · September 6th, 2016, 01:41 PM

Great information. I'm looking at Decimator Charles, and researching it. Thanks

Steven makes a good point too. It's crazy how antiquated some Corporate AV setups are. It's a real mixed bag depending on where you film. If it's a new Jazz Concert center it's modern stuff, if it's an old hotel it can be VGA and all kinds of crap.

Chris: What setup are using you for Livestreaming/Mixing? I agree on the one off cost point but something like the Roland is WAY out of our budget. Like 7.5 X out of our budget ha ha. We don't do it often but I remember Livestreaming and we able to share the presenter's slides from his laptop with ours (I think it was via the Ethernet but I can't quite remember). That works great for a smaller event like a webinar or something, but the minute I try to get that into a large conference with 15 presenters from different companies and different laptops, and a dedicated AV crew then it bet it would be a no go.

I did see this from BlackMagic and they claim it has a scaler.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...specs/W-VHS-01

Dumb question: What's an 1X4 distribution amp?

Chris Harding · September 6th, 2016, 05:49 PM

Hi Josh

We have a very simple set up for weddings which consists of our main cam up front at weddings which has a broadcaster pro encoder on it (so I can use it to stream direct if I need to) but mostly this is used as a remote camera going back to a laptop with Livestream Studio software on it and then out via a 4GX wifi hotspot. (Remember we are more often than not outdoors in a park so we have to be portable and not dependant on AC power) We also use either an Action cam (SJ4000) in web cam mode to give us a wide angle rear camera to cut to while I might be repositioning my front camera. At fixed venues with power it's normally just the two Panasonics FZ1000's with XLR adapters both with wireless Broadcasters going back again to Livestream Studio. They seem to work very well and you have a choice of CDN's via Studio but if you need to use the encoders on their own you are restricted to the Live Stream platform

I'm sure pros like Steve or Charles will explain a 1 x4 distribution amp to you

Jon Fairhurst · September 6th, 2016, 06:39 PM

The Decimator is a great tip as a companion to the Roland switcher. When feeding a 1080 projector it might not be needed, but if anything changes from the expected laptop/projector setup, it could save the day.

And people are so right about the manpower that it takes to do long-form editing in post, vs just doing it live. Maybe the live version won't be as perfect and might not have as many features (like bottom 3rds, keyed overlays, etc), but for a typical corporate, school, or church event, it doesn't much matter. Get good audio, good exposure, good framing, and capture all of the important stuff (context, closeups, slides) and you're golden.

Chris Harding · September 6th, 2016, 07:26 PM

Hi Jon

We are using LiveStream Studio software on a laptop and it's really easy to add lower thirds, media clips and overlays ...Makes an event a lot more professional by just adding a lower third with the guy at the podium's name takes it into the professional arena ...They actually even give you thirds graphics with the software to download and you can use just one graphic and have a list of names/titles that you just update when needed. I know it's just a bit of extra "swank" but it does make the end result a lot nicer!

Half the time I think we just get over fussy about our perfect video when it's more often than not way more than the client expects anyway.

Steven Digges · September 6th, 2016, 07:42 PM

Not a dumb question at all:

In its simplest form a distribution amplifier (DA) is a device that takes a single input and outputs it to multiple outputs, So a 1x4 DA would have one input sent to 4 outputs.

To go a step farther some people would call that a spliter but thats not really correct. Real DAs are not passive devises. The "amplifier" in the process adds some level of amplification to the signal to strengthen it if it is a true DA. Therefor you usually use your short cable run on the source/input connection side and let it push the amplified signal to the farther runs of the destination. ie: a projector not near the source.

For example: The Decimator can be programmed to make one SDI connection an input and turn the other four SDI connections into outputs.

Steve

Josh Hayes · September 14th, 2016, 08:23 PM

Hi Steven. Thanks for the explanation that makes total sense :)

Josh Hayes · September 14th, 2016, 08:30 PM

Chris: What are the wireless broadcasters you use from the camera's to the the computer? Are they proprieatary for Livestream I'm assuming (which is why you mention they'll only work with it) as opposed to something like the TeraDek's?

I'm still wondering if there's someway to capture the video/photo presentations coming off the speakers laptop (or whatever presenting device) when it's at a major conference (that isn't a $7000 solution). Like has anybody approached AV and stuck an Atomos Ninja or something near the video out before or after it gets to the projector screen to capture the feed. If I could avoid having to sync each and every individual slide in post from a presenter's talk I would be so happy. It takes more time than anything else in my pipeline by far (capturing the video from camera's in post production and syncing them for example).

Chris Harding · September 14th, 2016, 09:15 PM

Hi Josh

Yeah the Broadcaster Pro is around $500 and will send your camera output to the Livestream server via a wifi hotspot but it's restricted to streaming to their servers only. However you can also use them as remote cameras (which we do) and use LiveStream's Studio software which allows you to stream anywhere and it has a myriad of input options ... There is a free version that is restricted to LS only and two cams only but it's worth a look as it has a LOT of features that you could test out and see if you can get an output from the slideshow into the software ... if you get it to work then the full version is $799 so worth playing with the free version .. I have an idea it also accepts RMPT streams so being able to get the slideshow output and be able to switch to it would be very useful as sticking a camera on a stand and pointing at the slideshow screen gives awful results ....LS support are also very helpful ..I would download the software and play with it!!

Josh Hayes · September 15th, 2016, 05:54 PM

Chris, good stuff. That's fairly inexpensive and sounds like a rad setup for Livestreaming in general. I just used Livestream earlier this week for a Webinar type video, but it was a super simple 1 camera setup. So when you say remote do you just mean that you can control the cameras from the Laptop or do you mean you can be wireless (sans HDMI, SDI whatever) and directly to the hotspot and then the computer? Like a version of a Teradek but it only works with Livestream? Great to now on the software as well. I remember many years ago there being a feature where as long as the computer was on the same network or something along those lines, after the comp gave permission you could broadcast their screen. That would be huge.

Side question for folks. It looks like I may have lucked out and I might be able to have one single laptop for every presentation. And the AV crew is ok with me plugging something into the laptop as long as it's not in their export chain. Which means my goal of trying to get a video file for the presenter's slides as he or she changes it, might be more manageable. So besides just a general screen capture with something like ScreenFlow to a fast external hard drive (which might be the answer) any other potentially more reliable ways to use a recording device to capture the laptops screen contents?

Chris Harding · September 16th, 2016, 01:40 AM

Hey Josh

The Encoder works just like an HDMI wireless unit in remote camera mode so video and audio is passed wirelessly to the studio software and acts the same as a wired SDI or HDMI input but your computer doesn't need a Black Magic input card to do the job. Probably around the same price as a BM card in the end but you can work without any cables. Of course the other advantage is that if you want to stream direct from the encoder it will take you wirelessly direct to the Livestream server with no other hardware required BUT it only broadcasts to Livestream!! In remote camera mode it again only streams to the Studio 4.2 software but Studio of course allows you to broadcast out to any CDN including FB live and You Tube Live and all the usual services as long as you have an account with them. I looked at other providers apart from FB and YT and didn't like the fact they charge you according to views whereas for $499 a year LiveStream allows unlimited views and unlimited storage of the DVR copy of the stream.

Josh Hayes · September 16th, 2016, 01:18 PM

Got it. So the only wires in the scenario is a short HDMI out of the cam and into the Broadcaster (if you have multiple cameras then, you'll need multiple broadcasters) which then wirelessly transmits the camera signals back to the studio and streams away. For Livestream when I've used it, the final that is saved to the server after the event is streamed is an .mp4 with some quality loss. Is there a way to get a higher quality codec, and if so can the Broadcasters and the laptop handle it coming in/out?

Chris Harding · September 16th, 2016, 05:34 PM

Hi Josh

As a remote camera the broadcaster can stream out a maximum of HD+ (5.2mbps) direct to the Studio Software and Studio can stream a little higher ... If you stream out at this rate on the broadcaster it handles it with ease direct to the CDN but my i72600 CPU works rather hard when given video at this rate and now and again the CPU will get to 95% but I have never lost a stream ...Unless you have something like an Alienware gaming laptop and are prepared to fork over $4000+ then a standard (even i7 laptop) simply cannot handle the incoming video ...We have tried a Toshiba with an i7 2.4 - 3.1 GHz processor and it struggles!!!!

AFAIK the studio software will accept projects right up to UHD inputs but the DVR is an MP4 at 1280x720 but still quite watchable if you download it.

Donald McPherson · September 17th, 2016, 02:28 AM

I still like the idea of the Roland V‑1HD ‑ Video switcher with 4 hdmi inputs and two outputs. One would go to hdmi > usb convert . The second gives to a monitor with pip of the four cameras. So up to four cameras. If you have two converters which most i7 laptops could cope with you could stream the PowerPoint into the second thus allowing pip mix using software. (In my case xsplit)

September 4th, 2016, 08:42 PM	#16
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hey Josh You hit the nail on the head when you talked about turning 3 weeks into 3 days. We are now doing all our wedding shoots with live broadcast and live mixing. For us a shoot of 8 hours and edit of 20 hours now turns into just a shoot of 8 hours. Time is often a lot more costly than gear .. If you work out your actual cost of spending 3 weeks on a project versus 3 days ..a one off capital expense will pay for itself over and over again and you might also have a bit of time for yourself too!!

September 4th, 2016, 08:46 PM	#17
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? One last thing on the Decimator, there is an available Mac and PC control panel which greatly speeds up changing settings. And it also can function as a 1x4 distribution amp, as well as HDMI to SDI (or reverse) cross convertor. Good stuff. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

September 6th, 2016, 01:41 PM	#18
Josh Hayes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 264	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Great information. I'm looking at Decimator Charles, and researching it. Thanks Steven makes a good point too. It's crazy how antiquated some Corporate AV setups are. It's a real mixed bag depending on where you film. If it's a new Jazz Concert center it's modern stuff, if it's an old hotel it can be VGA and all kinds of crap. Chris: What setup are using you for Livestreaming/Mixing? I agree on the one off cost point but something like the Roland is WAY out of our budget. Like 7.5 X out of our budget ha ha. We don't do it often but I remember Livestreaming and we able to share the presenter's slides from his laptop with ours (I think it was via the Ethernet but I can't quite remember). That works great for a smaller event like a webinar or something, but the minute I try to get that into a large conference with 15 presenters from different companies and different laptops, and a dedicated AV crew then it bet it would be a no go. I did see this from BlackMagic and they claim it has a scaler. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...specs/W-VHS-01 Dumb question: What's an 1X4 distribution amp?

September 6th, 2016, 05:49 PM	#19
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hi Josh We have a very simple set up for weddings which consists of our main cam up front at weddings which has a broadcaster pro encoder on it (so I can use it to stream direct if I need to) but mostly this is used as a remote camera going back to a laptop with Livestream Studio software on it and then out via a 4GX wifi hotspot. (Remember we are more often than not outdoors in a park so we have to be portable and not dependant on AC power) We also use either an Action cam (SJ4000) in web cam mode to give us a wide angle rear camera to cut to while I might be repositioning my front camera. At fixed venues with power it's normally just the two Panasonics FZ1000's with XLR adapters both with wireless Broadcasters going back again to Livestream Studio. They seem to work very well and you have a choice of CDN's via Studio but if you need to use the encoders on their own you are restricted to the Live Stream platform I'm sure pros like Steve or Charles will explain a 1 x4 distribution amp to you

September 6th, 2016, 06:39 PM	#20
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? The Decimator is a great tip as a companion to the Roland switcher. When feeding a 1080 projector it might not be needed, but if anything changes from the expected laptop/projector setup, it could save the day. And people are so right about the manpower that it takes to do long-form editing in post, vs just doing it live. Maybe the live version won't be as perfect and might not have as many features (like bottom 3rds, keyed overlays, etc), but for a typical corporate, school, or church event, it doesn't much matter. Get good audio, good exposure, good framing, and capture all of the important stuff (context, closeups, slides) and you're golden. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

September 6th, 2016, 07:26 PM	#21
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hi Jon We are using LiveStream Studio software on a laptop and it's really easy to add lower thirds, media clips and overlays ...Makes an event a lot more professional by just adding a lower third with the guy at the podium's name takes it into the professional arena ...They actually even give you thirds graphics with the software to download and you can use just one graphic and have a list of names/titles that you just update when needed. I know it's just a bit of extra "swank" but it does make the end result a lot nicer! Half the time I think we just get over fussy about our perfect video when it's more often than not way more than the client expects anyway.

September 6th, 2016, 07:42 PM	#22
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Not a dumb question at all: In its simplest form a distribution amplifier (DA) is a device that takes a single input and outputs it to multiple outputs, So a 1x4 DA would have one input sent to 4 outputs. To go a step farther some people would call that a spliter but thats not really correct. Real DAs are not passive devises. The "amplifier" in the process adds some level of amplification to the signal to strengthen it if it is a true DA. Therefor you usually use your short cable run on the source/input connection side and let it push the amplified signal to the farther runs of the destination. ie: a projector not near the source. For example: The Decimator can be programmed to make one SDI connection an input and turn the other four SDI connections into outputs. Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

September 14th, 2016, 08:23 PM	#23
Josh Hayes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 264	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hi Steven. Thanks for the explanation that makes total sense :)

September 14th, 2016, 08:30 PM	#24
Josh Hayes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 264	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Chris: What are the wireless broadcasters you use from the camera's to the the computer? Are they proprieatary for Livestream I'm assuming (which is why you mention they'll only work with it) as opposed to something like the TeraDek's? I'm still wondering if there's someway to capture the video/photo presentations coming off the speakers laptop (or whatever presenting device) when it's at a major conference (that isn't a $7000 solution). Like has anybody approached AV and stuck an Atomos Ninja or something near the video out before or after it gets to the projector screen to capture the feed. If I could avoid having to sync each and every individual slide in post from a presenter's talk I would be so happy. It takes more time than anything else in my pipeline by far (capturing the video from camera's in post production and syncing them for example).

September 14th, 2016, 09:15 PM	#25
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hi Josh Yeah the Broadcaster Pro is around $500 and will send your camera output to the Livestream server via a wifi hotspot but it's restricted to streaming to their servers only. However you can also use them as remote cameras (which we do) and use LiveStream's Studio software which allows you to stream anywhere and it has a myriad of input options ... There is a free version that is restricted to LS only and two cams only but it's worth a look as it has a LOT of features that you could test out and see if you can get an output from the slideshow into the software ... if you get it to work then the full version is $799 so worth playing with the free version .. I have an idea it also accepts RMPT streams so being able to get the slideshow output and be able to switch to it would be very useful as sticking a camera on a stand and pointing at the slideshow screen gives awful results ....LS support are also very helpful ..I would download the software and play with it!!

September 15th, 2016, 05:54 PM	#26
Josh Hayes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 264	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Chris, good stuff. That's fairly inexpensive and sounds like a rad setup for Livestreaming in general. I just used Livestream earlier this week for a Webinar type video, but it was a super simple 1 camera setup. So when you say remote do you just mean that you can control the cameras from the Laptop or do you mean you can be wireless (sans HDMI, SDI whatever) and directly to the hotspot and then the computer? Like a version of a Teradek but it only works with Livestream? Great to now on the software as well. I remember many years ago there being a feature where as long as the computer was on the same network or something along those lines, after the comp gave permission you could broadcast their screen. That would be huge. Side question for folks. It looks like I may have lucked out and I might be able to have one single laptop for every presentation. And the AV crew is ok with me plugging something into the laptop as long as it's not in their export chain. Which means my goal of trying to get a video file for the presenter's slides as he or she changes it, might be more manageable. So besides just a general screen capture with something like ScreenFlow to a fast external hard drive (which might be the answer) any other potentially more reliable ways to use a recording device to capture the laptops screen contents?

September 16th, 2016, 01:40 AM	#27
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hey Josh The Encoder works just like an HDMI wireless unit in remote camera mode so video and audio is passed wirelessly to the studio software and acts the same as a wired SDI or HDMI input but your computer doesn't need a Black Magic input card to do the job. Probably around the same price as a BM card in the end but you can work without any cables. Of course the other advantage is that if you want to stream direct from the encoder it will take you wirelessly direct to the Livestream server with no other hardware required BUT it only broadcasts to Livestream!! In remote camera mode it again only streams to the Studio 4.2 software but Studio of course allows you to broadcast out to any CDN including FB live and You Tube Live and all the usual services as long as you have an account with them. I looked at other providers apart from FB and YT and didn't like the fact they charge you according to views whereas for $499 a year LiveStream allows unlimited views and unlimited storage of the DVR copy of the stream.

September 16th, 2016, 01:18 PM	#28
Josh Hayes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 264	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Got it. So the only wires in the scenario is a short HDMI out of the cam and into the Broadcaster (if you have multiple cameras then, you'll need multiple broadcasters) which then wirelessly transmits the camera signals back to the studio and streams away. For Livestream when I've used it, the final that is saved to the server after the event is streamed is an .mp4 with some quality loss. Is there a way to get a higher quality codec, and if so can the Broadcasters and the laptop handle it coming in/out?

September 16th, 2016, 05:34 PM	#29
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? Hi Josh As a remote camera the broadcaster can stream out a maximum of HD+ (5.2mbps) direct to the Studio Software and Studio can stream a little higher ... If you stream out at this rate on the broadcaster it handles it with ease direct to the CDN but my i72600 CPU works rather hard when given video at this rate and now and again the CPU will get to 95% but I have never lost a stream ...Unless you have something like an Alienware gaming laptop and are prepared to fork over $4000+ then a standard (even i7 laptop) simply cannot handle the incoming video ...We have tried a Toshiba with an i7 2.4 - 3.1 GHz processor and it struggles!!!! AFAIK the studio software will accept projects right up to UHD inputs but the DVR is an MP4 at 1280x720 but still quite watchable if you download it.

September 17th, 2016, 02:28 AM	#30
Donald McPherson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Aberdeen Scotland Posts: 815	Re: Is there a new cheap updated switcher like the Atem Television Studio? I still like the idea of the Roland V‑1HD ‑ Video switcher with 4 hdmi inputs and two outputs. One would go to hdmi > usb convert . The second gives to a monitor with pip of the four cameras. So up to four cameras. If you have two converters which most i7 laptops could cope with you could stream the PowerPoint into the second thus allowing pip mix using software. (In my case xsplit)