Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline at DVinfo.net

Brock Burwell · October 2nd, 2015, 09:44 AM

I shot a video for a football team during a game recently in 60fps with the idea that would want to slow it down in post and export in 24fps. After looking at the footage though, I really love the 60fps look. I'm a bit torn about not slowing anything down and leaving it in 60fps or putting it in a 24fps timeline and using slow-mo. Anyone have any suggestions?

Seth Bloombaum · October 2nd, 2015, 11:46 AM

How will you distribute the finished project? Does the distribution method support 60fps?

Are there visible artifacts like judder in the 24 or 30fps playback? I've never tried this with something as high-motion as football...

I get the most viewing enjoyment out of a combination of fastmo, real-time, and slowmo, with velocity ramping as a transition between them. FWIW.

Ron Evans · October 2nd, 2015, 04:08 PM

For fast movement you will need 60 fps. I would edit in a 60P or 60i timeline . You can make a 60i DVD or Bluray from the 60P just fine as the temporal motion is the same and will maintain the smooth motion.

Ron Evans

Brock Burwell · October 5th, 2015, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

How will you distribute the finished project? Does the distribution method support 60fps?

Are there visible artifacts like judder in the 24 or 30fps playback? I've never tried this with something as high-motion as football...

I get the most viewing enjoyment out of a combination of fastmo, real-time, and slowmo, with velocity ramping as a transition between them. FWIW.

What is velocity ramping?

Bryan Cantwell · October 6th, 2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

What is velocity ramping?

It's more commonly called speed ramping, and it's what you call the effect of video transitioning from normal speed to high-speed and/or back again.

Brock Burwell · October 6th, 2015, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Cantwell

It's more commonly called speed ramping, and it's what you call the effect of video transitioning from normal speed to high-speed and/or back again.

Thanks Bryan

I ended up exporting it as a 24fps video and I'm happy with it. I wanted some of the slow-mo to look nice so I think it was a good call.

Seth Bloombaum · October 6th, 2015, 12:07 PM

Looks good! I'd imagine that the football community is going to be very happy with it.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the minor judder artifacts in the opening shot. Opinions?

Steven Digges · October 7th, 2015, 12:03 PM

Yep, Seth, your being overly sensitive to it. We are all being conditioned to accept it ;-) ;-) ;-)

Brock, Great video! I suspect it is a combination of footage you shot and footage from the network covering it? I have followed your work and you have talent. What I liked about this video is it is football but it does not have a network look to it at all. Your young DSLR style is stamped all over it. It is refreshing to see something edited by a young talent that is not influenced by years in the business with a past of being told what it should look like. Very original for football.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Steven Digges · October 7th, 2015, 12:20 PM

Brock,

It takes guts to post work on this forum. We are a tough crowd. I am not going to arm chair quarterback your video and pick it apart but I do have one comment. I am not a young DSLR guy, I am a crusty old school guy. So I feel very strongly that ANY clip that is out of focus and stays out of focus is not a clip and should never be used. Out of focus is not a style or art form to me. At .24 that clip screams amateur to me. But like I said, maybe thats my crusty opinion :-)

Steve

Matt Sharp · October 7th, 2015, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I feel very strongly that ANY clip that is out of focus and stays out of focus is not a clip and should never be used. Out of focus is not a style or art form to me. At .24 that clip screams amateur to me.

I was waiting for a focus rack or an in focus person to come into frame but it never happened. Still an interesting shot but I would have cut it.

Brock Burwell · October 7th, 2015, 09:05 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Every shot in that video was with my GH4 with the exception of 3 drone shots. The one pregame, in my opinion, I was too far ahead of the team and too high. I believe it would have been a much more interesting shot had I been 4-5 feet above the team as they ran out and far enough back in the group to get the majority of them running out. The other two drone shots in the video (first two shots of the video) were done post game. Nothing was from the network. It was all shot by me during that single game.

In regards to the shot that starts out of focus and never racks into focus, I completely agree. I don't really like the shot, but for whatever reason I never cut it. Had I gotten one more quality shot that I felt captured the feeling the other shots surrounding it gave me, I would have replaced it. If I looked hard enough, I probably would have found a shot that could have taken its place. Your not being old and crusty haha. I agree with you. Not sure why it didnt end up getting cut. Next time I guess.

I actually have been inspired by the University of Colorado who shoots the most amazing football videos I've ever seen. I contacted them a few weeks back and just picked their brains about how they do what they do and it's pretty fantastic. I believe they have a couple Red Epics, but i was encouraged to hear they shoot with a couple GH4's as well. I've been trying to emulate their more cinematic style combined with football. I'm not close, but at least I'm trying haha. Below is one of my favorite videos of theirs

Brock Burwell · October 8th, 2015, 08:23 AM

Also, I appreciate all the advice you all give. I would post every single video I do here just for constructive criticism if I didn't think it would be annoying. But I do appreciate you guys and your knowledge and wisdom. Much appreciated.

Steven Digges · October 8th, 2015, 10:29 AM

Brock,

I suggest you watch the CU video again with a critical EAR. Almost every scene in that video has background audio tracks that were added in post. They used everything from crowd noise that was not present to a lot of foley effects. They also did a good job of cutting to music to drive the tempo of the shots. That video is a study in VO, tempo, foley, BG music, and audio mixing.

I am sure a lot of the cut a way shots and audio came from a library they have already established for themselves. Since your job is to cover everything at your school, not just sports, you could do the same thing if you your not already. Keep an audio recorder and or camera on you at all times and record your own stock library. All of the footage for every project does not have to come from that shoot. Good stock audio and video will make your life a lot easier every time you to post. Especially for you as the in-house guy at an institution, it will be easy.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Brock Burwell · October 8th, 2015, 10:52 AM

If I'm not mistaken, they won an Emmy for audio on that video. It's absolutely fantastic. They posted a photo on their Facebook page a while back of just the audio tracks that was in the video and it was huge. They are absolutely unbelievable.

Steven Digges · October 8th, 2015, 12:42 PM

This is a boring business video I directed at Lambeau Field several years ago. It was shown to almost all of the active players in the NFL at the time. I hired a local crew for cameras and sound. They were referred to me by someone on this site. As the Director I also wrote most of the dialog on site because the client was not prepared and showed up without the script. I knew the message he wanted to get out so I adlibed my way through the player interviews. Those are the times when you are incredibly grateful you have a crew and are not shooting too.

My audio is boring and canned because it is canned. The client is very, very conservative. This is one of the few times a client kept making me take good stuff out. I had the sound of the player slapping the football in the locker room inserted with the graphics to give it some punch. He did not like it so I had to revert to the canned whistle and fake crowd noise. I also had other effects in my original cut, especialy when the player looks around the empty stadium, he made me take everything good out.

I have worked at tons of professional sporting venues but I have never seen anything like the way they treat Lambeau Field. When we got picked up at the airport the guy said "Son, make sure you understand football is our religion here!" Was he ever correct and they treat that venue like it is a temple.

The hand holding the football that gets kicked is my friend and assistant. He is a big football fan. You should have seen the look on his face when I asked the kicker if he would show him how to hold the ball properly for the shot. He still tells the story all the time about how he got to hold a ball on Lambeau Field five times while a Pro from the NFL kicked it. It was pretty cool for him.

Not anything for you to learn from this video, boring straight forward old stuff. I pick on you so I thought I would dig this up and show you I make mistakes too. There is a story behind the last guy in the locker room. I don't like that part at all. He showed up late and angry after ten hours of delayed travel. He said you get five minutes and no retakes, boom it was over. You don't argue with a guy that played for Green Bay for over ten years!

Kind Regards,

Steve

October 2nd, 2015, 09:44 AM	#1
Brock Burwell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 385	Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline I shot a video for a football team during a game recently in 60fps with the idea that would want to slow it down in post and export in 24fps. After looking at the footage though, I really love the 60fps look. I'm a bit torn about not slowing anything down and leaving it in 60fps or putting it in a 24fps timeline and using slow-mo. Anyone have any suggestions?

October 2nd, 2015, 11:46 AM	#2
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline How will you distribute the finished project? Does the distribution method support 60fps? Are there visible artifacts like judder in the 24 or 30fps playback? I've never tried this with something as high-motion as football... I get the most viewing enjoyment out of a combination of fastmo, real-time, and slowmo, with velocity ramping as a transition between them. FWIW. __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.

October 2nd, 2015, 04:08 PM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline For fast movement you will need 60 fps. I would edit in a 60P or 60i timeline . You can make a 60i DVD or Bluray from the 60P just fine as the temporal motion is the same and will maintain the smooth motion. Ron Evans

October 6th, 2015, 12:07 PM	#7
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Looks good! I'd imagine that the football community is going to be very happy with it. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the minor judder artifacts in the opening shot. Opinions? __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.

October 7th, 2015, 12:03 PM	#8
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Yep, Seth, your being overly sensitive to it. We are all being conditioned to accept it ;-) ;-) ;-) Brock, Great video! I suspect it is a combination of footage you shot and footage from the network covering it? I have followed your work and you have talent. What I liked about this video is it is football but it does not have a network look to it at all. Your young DSLR style is stamped all over it. It is refreshing to see something edited by a young talent that is not influenced by years in the business with a past of being told what it should look like. Very original for football. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 7th, 2015, 12:20 PM	#9
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Brock, It takes guts to post work on this forum. We are a tough crowd. I am not going to arm chair quarterback your video and pick it apart but I do have one comment. I am not a young DSLR guy, I am a crusty old school guy. So I feel very strongly that ANY clip that is out of focus and stays out of focus is not a clip and should never be used. Out of focus is not a style or art form to me. At .24 that clip screams amateur to me. But like I said, maybe thats my crusty opinion :-) Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 7th, 2015, 09:05 PM	#11
Brock Burwell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 385	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Thanks for the advice everyone! Every shot in that video was with my GH4 with the exception of 3 drone shots. The one pregame, in my opinion, I was too far ahead of the team and too high. I believe it would have been a much more interesting shot had I been 4-5 feet above the team as they ran out and far enough back in the group to get the majority of them running out. The other two drone shots in the video (first two shots of the video) were done post game. Nothing was from the network. It was all shot by me during that single game. In regards to the shot that starts out of focus and never racks into focus, I completely agree. I don't really like the shot, but for whatever reason I never cut it. Had I gotten one more quality shot that I felt captured the feeling the other shots surrounding it gave me, I would have replaced it. If I looked hard enough, I probably would have found a shot that could have taken its place. Your not being old and crusty haha. I agree with you. Not sure why it didnt end up getting cut. Next time I guess. I actually have been inspired by the University of Colorado who shoots the most amazing football videos I've ever seen. I contacted them a few weeks back and just picked their brains about how they do what they do and it's pretty fantastic. I believe they have a couple Red Epics, but i was encouraged to hear they shoot with a couple GH4's as well. I've been trying to emulate their more cinematic style combined with football. I'm not close, but at least I'm trying haha. Below is one of my favorite videos of theirs FOREVER on Vimeo

October 8th, 2015, 08:23 AM	#12
Brock Burwell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 385	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Also, I appreciate all the advice you all give. I would post every single video I do here just for constructive criticism if I didn't think it would be annoying. But I do appreciate you guys and your knowledge and wisdom. Much appreciated.

October 8th, 2015, 10:29 AM	#13
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline Brock, I suggest you watch the CU video again with a critical EAR. Almost every scene in that video has background audio tracks that were added in post. They used everything from crowd noise that was not present to a lot of foley effects. They also did a good job of cutting to music to drive the tempo of the shots. That video is a study in VO, tempo, foley, BG music, and audio mixing. I am sure a lot of the cut a way shots and audio came from a library they have already established for themselves. Since your job is to cover everything at your school, not just sports, you could do the same thing if you your not already. Keep an audio recorder and or camera on you at all times and record your own stock library. All of the footage for every project does not have to come from that shoot. Good stock audio and video will make your life a lot easier every time you to post. Especially for you as the in-house guy at an institution, it will be easy. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 8th, 2015, 10:52 AM	#14
Brock Burwell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 385	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline If I'm not mistaken, they won an Emmy for audio on that video. It's absolutely fantastic. They posted a photo on their Facebook page a while back of just the audio tracks that was in the video and it was huge. They are absolutely unbelievable.

October 8th, 2015, 12:42 PM	#15
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Football 60fps vs 24fps Timeline This is a boring business video I directed at Lambeau Field several years ago. It was shown to almost all of the active players in the NFL at the time. I hired a local crew for cameras and sound. They were referred to me by someone on this site. As the Director I also wrote most of the dialog on site because the client was not prepared and showed up without the script. I knew the message he wanted to get out so I adlibed my way through the player interviews. Those are the times when you are incredibly grateful you have a crew and are not shooting too. My audio is boring and canned because it is canned. The client is very, very conservative. This is one of the few times a client kept making me take good stuff out. I had the sound of the player slapping the football in the locker room inserted with the graphics to give it some punch. He did not like it so I had to revert to the canned whistle and fake crowd noise. I also had other effects in my original cut, especialy when the player looks around the empty stadium, he made me take everything good out. I have worked at tons of professional sporting venues but I have never seen anything like the way they treat Lambeau Field. When we got picked up at the airport the guy said "Son, make sure you understand football is our religion here!" Was he ever correct and they treat that venue like it is a temple. The hand holding the football that gets kicked is my friend and assistant. He is a big football fan. You should have seen the look on his face when I asked the kicker if he would show him how to hold the ball properly for the shot. He still tells the story all the time about how he got to hold a ball on Lambeau Field five times while a Pro from the NFL kicked it. It was pretty cool for him. Not anything for you to learn from this video, boring straight forward old stuff. I pick on you so I thought I would dig this up and show you I make mistakes too. There is a story behind the last guy in the locker room. I don't like that part at all. He showed up late and angry after ten hours of delayed travel. He said you get five minutes and no retakes, boom it was over. You don't argue with a guy that played for Green Bay for over ten years! Kind Regards, Steve Green Bay Packers on Vimeo __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!