To color time two diff cameras: lighter or darker? at DVinfo.net

Ronald Lee · September 19th, 2005, 01:55 AM

Hi,

I have some footage I shot, it was a two camera shoot with a PDX10 and a VX2100.

Unfortunately, the footage doesn't match. The PDX10 footage is more saturated and darker than the VX2100 footage. So some color timing is in order, the question is, should I darken the VX2100 or try to lighten the PDX10 footage?

Which would give the closest result to the other camera footage?

thanx

Glenn Chan · September 19th, 2005, 08:29 AM

If you reduce darkness, you can generally reduce the appearance of noise.

My guess is that the PDX10 is a little noisier than the VX. So, while you'll never match the cameras exactly in terms of noise, you can lower the brightness on the VX so that noise in either shot is hard to see.

This is if you lower "gain" via a color corrector filter. That's different from gamma. Programs call these things different names, so that may not mean much to you.

2- Why don't you try both approaches yourself?

Boyd Ostroff · September 19th, 2005, 12:10 PM

Actually the PDX-10 is much less noisy than my VX-2000 since it has 14 bit DSP. You can apply 12dB of gain with almost no adverse effects. But of course it's also 2.5 f-stops slower than the VX-2000, so if you set the exposure the same then the PDX-10 would appear darker. Now the VX-2100 supposed has better image processing, so that might tip the scales a bit.

Another thing: the default sharpness on the PDX-10 is excessive to my eyes and gives it a harsh look with outlines around contrasty areas. I always dial it down to either the minimum or one click above. At that point it looks a lot like the default setting on the VX-200.

FWIW, I did some comparisons of the two cameras awhile ago which might be of interest:

http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/
http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/

For example, these two images are 200% enlargements of a portion of the frame with the sharpness in the default position on each camera:

http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/x-05.JPG
http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-05.JPG

Notice also that to acheive a similar exposure the PDX-10 was at f1.6 +3dB while the VX-2000 was at f2.8 0dB. Now I think the PDX-10 with sharpness at -2 is a much closer match to the VX-2000 at the default:

http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-07.JPG

or even at -3 sharp on the PDX-10:

http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-08.JPG

Here are the full untouched images:

http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/05.JPG
http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/08.JPG

I find the images very similar, but the VX-2000 seems to render colors with a little more richness than the PDX-10. You could help this in post but they probably won't ever match exactly. The CCD's are very different on these two cameras.

Glenn Chan · September 19th, 2005, 08:27 PM

hey Ronald,

If you're using Sony Vegas I have some information on matching cameras up:
http://www.glennchan.info/matching/matching.htm

You can remove excessive halos by entering in the following for unsharp mask
amount -0.5
radius ~0.003 to 0.007
threshold - 0.040ish maybe. I forget.

2- Boyd: That's good information. I don't have either camera so I wouldn't have known that.

September 19th, 2005, 01:55 AM	#1
Ronald Lee Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 435	To color time two diff cameras: lighter or darker? Hi, I have some footage I shot, it was a two camera shoot with a PDX10 and a VX2100. Unfortunately, the footage doesn't match. The PDX10 footage is more saturated and darker than the VX2100 footage. So some color timing is in order, the question is, should I darken the VX2100 or try to lighten the PDX10 footage? Which would give the closest result to the other camera footage? thanx

September 19th, 2005, 08:29 AM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	If you reduce darkness, you can generally reduce the appearance of noise. My guess is that the PDX10 is a little noisier than the VX. So, while you'll never match the cameras exactly in terms of noise, you can lower the brightness on the VX so that noise in either shot is hard to see. This is if you lower "gain" via a color corrector filter. That's different from gamma. Programs call these things different names, so that may not mean much to you. 2- Why don't you try both approaches yourself?

September 19th, 2005, 12:10 PM	#3
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Actually the PDX-10 is much less noisy than my VX-2000 since it has 14 bit DSP. You can apply 12dB of gain with almost no adverse effects. But of course it's also 2.5 f-stops slower than the VX-2000, so if you set the exposure the same then the PDX-10 would appear darker. Now the VX-2100 supposed has better image processing, so that might tip the scales a bit. Another thing: the default sharpness on the PDX-10 is excessive to my eyes and gives it a harsh look with outlines around contrasty areas. I always dial it down to either the minimum or one click above. At that point it looks a lot like the default setting on the VX-200. FWIW, I did some comparisons of the two cameras awhile ago which might be of interest: http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/ http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/ For example, these two images are 200% enlargements of a portion of the frame with the sharpness in the default position on each camera: http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/x-05.JPG http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-05.JPG Notice also that to acheive a similar exposure the PDX-10 was at f1.6 +3dB while the VX-2000 was at f2.8 0dB. Now I think the PDX-10 with sharpness at -2 is a much closer match to the VX-2000 at the default: http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-07.JPG or even at -3 sharp on the PDX-10: http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/x-08.JPG Here are the full untouched images: http://www.greenmist.com/dv/vxsharp/05.JPG http://www.greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp/08.JPG I find the images very similar, but the VX-2000 seems to render colors with a little more richness than the PDX-10. You could help this in post but they probably won't ever match exactly. The CCD's are very different on these two cameras.

September 19th, 2005, 08:27 PM	#4
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	hey Ronald, If you're using Sony Vegas I have some information on matching cameras up: http://www.glennchan.info/matching/matching.htm You can remove excessive halos by entering in the following for unsharp mask amount -0.5 radius ~0.003 to 0.007 threshold - 0.040ish maybe. I forget. 2- Boyd: That's good information. I don't have either camera so I wouldn't have known that.