A simle solution for canon to use full size chips in their video line up?? at DVinfo.net

Craig Turner · February 2nd, 2010, 11:57 PM

Firstly and briefly, Canon's new camera = yawn.

Why are they not releasing a full frame dedicated video camera?

Now I get that everyone is going to say it's because of the huge lens size/ complexity to achieve the zoom and wide angle capabilities of an "every day lens" like on the XLH1, due to the size of the image sensor. Also the auto focus, zoom motor etc.

But my thought. Why could they just not build a video camera with a full frame 35mm sensor. Then have the "standard lens" that comes with the camera (say a similar lens as currently on the XLH1) when attached to the camera the camera could detect it and reduce the the used area on the image sensor. Then switch to a full frame EOS lens and it would switch to full frame.

Why would this not work? The 5D is 21mp, Hd videos only needs 2mp I'm sure there is enough pixels in there.

Even if for some reason it wouldn't work why cant you have two image sensors and a internal mirror to switch between then or something?

Jonathan Palfrey · February 3rd, 2010, 09:01 AM

Im not sure if its possible or not but what you say does make sense. Maybe someone with more knowledge of sensors can inform us if it would be possible.

Im not sure if I agree with the argument that the camera needs to have the lens abilities of a standard ENG or Prosumer camera. I think everyone who wants a Full frame camcorder just want a 5D or 7D in the shape of a standard camcorder and included pro audio etc. It wouldnt be a replacement for the standard 1/3in camera but rather an addition for people who want a prosumer camera for creative use. Just like how people right now by a VSLR for creative and low light use but still use other cameras for actuality stuff. No one is complaining that the 7D doesnt have a motorised 20x zoom because thats not what they need it for. A FF camcorder would be the same.

I think Canon should release a APC sensor camcorder in the shape of the XHA1 with XLR audio, audio control levels, 3 or 4in LCD, A1 batteries, record on to dual CF or SD card media, have an EOS mount on the front and an option to include a EF-S 17-55mm 2.8 IS lens.

Chris Hurd · February 3rd, 2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

Why are they not releasing a full frame dedicated video camera?

The answer to this question is explained in detail here: APS-C or Full Frame CMOS Sensors? Not Happening in 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

why cant you have two image sensors and a internal mirror to switch between then or something?

Good heavens, I thought you said *simple!*

Craig Turner · February 3rd, 2010, 09:18 PM

Actually that is the article I am replying to.

My idea would solve the lens zoom ratio/ lens flexibility issues. And in regard to event films being a small niche market it would open a full frame camera up to the whole (massive) prosumer market.

Even if they did release a "video camera body" version of the 5D, having a small image sensor switching option would still make it 1000 times beter.

our business does a huge variety of work i.e. ENG, Wedding Videos, Sports, Doco, TV production, corporate. I love the 5D2 for wedding work and many elements of the other areas we work in however there is simply some situations where the 5D2 is rubbish (as detailed in that article)
##Two recent situations where it has proven difficult was a sports event. You just can't get a big enough practical zoom lens. The photos were fine though because you can crop them (btw cropped them to a resolution still higher than HD). Another situation is when we use the camera for personal use and sometime you simple need to switch every thing to auto so someone else can use the camera##

Imagine a auto lens for every situation then the option of EF lens and by the same design principle you could even use EF-S lenses. It would rock!

I think canons biggest problem is at this point is it's too late for them. They have already shown the world it is cheap and practical to have a full frame video capability. The issues of lens flexibility versus market segment, for them should be only small technical details to design around in a new camera.

that's my though anyway

Kin Lau · February 5th, 2010, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

Actually that is the article I am replying to.

My idea would solve the lens zoom ratio/ lens flexibility issues. And in regard to event films being a small niche market it would open a full frame camera up to the whole (massive) prosumer market.

Just tossing around a few numbers based on that, and here's what I see.

By prosumer, you must mean an XLH1A or XLH1S, since interchangeable lenses are mentioned. How "massive" of a market is that compared to 5Dm2's market? The 5Dm2 market is probably already several times larger.

If by prosumer you mean a Vixia series, none of those have interchangeable lenses, so if you introduce a $3000- HD camcorder with interchangeable lenses, you've just undercut Canon's entire pro line by a lot.

To crop down to just 2mp of the 5Dm2's 21mp, you will still need a lens that can cover a 2/3 sensor (larger actually, surface area of a 2/3 chip is only 58mm but ff35 is 864mm). A 2/3 chip prosumer camcorder will be quite something already.

The 5Dm2 sensor is 40x larger than the 1/3 chip in the XLH1 series... yes, 40x. That much of a difference would make it very hard to use anything currently already designed for video.

Daniel Browning · February 6th, 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

Why could they just not build a video camera with a full frame 35mm sensor. Then have the "standard lens" that comes with the camera (say a similar lens as currently on the XLH1) when attached to the camera the camera could detect it and reduce the the used area on the image sensor. Then switch to a full frame EOS lens and it would switch to full frame.

Generally, that would work. Nikon does this with DX lenses on FX cameras. But in order to have 1080p pixel count on the windowed 1/3" sensor, you would have to have a total pixel count of 103 MP. Currently, full frame sensors are only around 12-24 MP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

Why would this not work? The 5D is 21mp, Hd videos only needs 2mp I'm sure there is enough pixels in there.

Not even close. Even with 21 MP to start with, when you widow the sensor to just 1/3", there would only be 800x450, which is less than Standard Definition (0.3 MP).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Turner

Even if for some reason it wouldn't work why cant you have two image sensors and a internal mirror to switch between then or something?

I think a much better solution is to just stop down the full frame lens and continue using the whole sensor.

February 2nd, 2010, 11:57 PM	#1
Craig Turner New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Perth Western Australia Posts: 23	A simle solution for canon to use full size chips in their video line up?? Firstly and briefly, Canon's new camera = yawn. Why are they not releasing a full frame dedicated video camera? Now I get that everyone is going to say it's because of the huge lens size/ complexity to achieve the zoom and wide angle capabilities of an "every day lens" like on the XLH1, due to the size of the image sensor. Also the auto focus, zoom motor etc. But my thought. Why could they just not build a video camera with a full frame 35mm sensor. Then have the "standard lens" that comes with the camera (say a similar lens as currently on the XLH1) when attached to the camera the camera could detect it and reduce the the used area on the image sensor. Then switch to a full frame EOS lens and it would switch to full frame. Why would this not work? The 5D is 21mp, Hd videos only needs 2mp I'm sure there is enough pixels in there. Even if for some reason it wouldn't work why cant you have two image sensors and a internal mirror to switch between then or something? __________________ Craig Turner - In Shot Productions Video Production Perth Western Australia www.inshotproductions.com

February 3rd, 2010, 09:18 PM	#4
Craig Turner New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Perth Western Australia Posts: 23	Actually that is the article I am replying to. My idea would solve the lens zoom ratio/ lens flexibility issues. And in regard to event films being a small niche market it would open a full frame camera up to the whole (massive) prosumer market. Even if they did release a "video camera body" version of the 5D, having a small image sensor switching option would still make it 1000 times beter. our business does a huge variety of work i.e. ENG, Wedding Videos, Sports, Doco, TV production, corporate. I love the 5D2 for wedding work and many elements of the other areas we work in however there is simply some situations where the 5D2 is rubbish (as detailed in that article) ##Two recent situations where it has proven difficult was a sports event. You just can't get a big enough practical zoom lens. The photos were fine though because you can crop them (btw cropped them to a resolution still higher than HD). Another situation is when we use the camera for personal use and sometime you simple need to switch every thing to auto so someone else can use the camera## Imagine a auto lens for every situation then the option of EF lens and by the same design principle you could even use EF-S lenses. It would rock! I think canons biggest problem is at this point is it's too late for them. They have already shown the world it is cheap and practical to have a full frame video capability. The issues of lens flexibility versus market segment, for them should be only small technical details to design around in a new camera. that's my though anyway __________________ Craig Turner - In Shot Productions Video Production Perth Western Australia www.inshotproductions.com

February 3rd, 2010, 09:01 AM	#2
Jonathan Palfrey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Torbay, UK Posts: 170	Im not sure if its possible or not but what you say does make sense. Maybe someone with more knowledge of sensors can inform us if it would be possible. Im not sure if I agree with the argument that the camera needs to have the lens abilities of a standard ENG or Prosumer camera. I think everyone who wants a Full frame camcorder just want a 5D or 7D in the shape of a standard camcorder and included pro audio etc. It wouldnt be a replacement for the standard 1/3in camera but rather an addition for people who want a prosumer camera for creative use. Just like how people right now by a VSLR for creative and low light use but still use other cameras for actuality stuff. No one is complaining that the 7D doesnt have a motorised 20x zoom because thats not what they need it for. A FF camcorder would be the same. I think Canon should release a APC sensor camcorder in the shape of the XHA1 with XLR audio, audio control levels, 3 or 4in LCD, A1 batteries, record on to dual CF or SD card media, have an EOS mount on the front and an option to include a EF-S 17-55mm 2.8 IS lens.