What is a decent camera for tapeless recording at DVinfo.net

Bart Wierzbicki · January 14th, 2010, 09:45 AM

Hi,
At this moment I use a HV30 in a fixed setup, but it's only on tape, so it ends after 60min.
What camera gives good quality and can film continuesly for about 90 min ?

Perrone Ford · January 14th, 2010, 10:32 AM

Probably every AVCHD camera over US$800 would do the job.

Bruce Phung · January 14th, 2010, 12:55 PM

Please note that AVCHD camera recording will breakup into smaller file size like 2gig when playback on camera it will be seamless BUT when you import them into your editing program you will find about 2 frames drop out in the audio. If you want to fix that you will need to find a program to rejoin them before edit. 2gig= to about 17 minutes of recording. So a 90 minutes continue recording will have many small file.

Perrone Ford · January 14th, 2010, 01:01 PM

Bruce, just because that happens to you, doesn't mean it happens to all users on all NLEs. I've never had that issue.

Bruce Phung · January 14th, 2010, 01:09 PM

Perrone, We can agree or disagree since we do not know what NLE he is using but there is a potentially can happen to what I describe above with avchd cameras.

Perrone Ford · January 14th, 2010, 01:13 PM

Yes, I agree it could be a problem. However, your statement indicated that it would be a certainty.

Tom Hardwick · January 14th, 2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart Wierzbicki

What camera gives good quality and can film continuesly for about 90 min ?

You could run 80 minute tapes in the Canon in the HDV mode, and get good quality LP DV recordings lasting an hour.

Dave Blackhurst · January 14th, 2010, 01:23 PM

Bruce -
Typically the cameras come with software, which upon importing the files will stitch them back together seamlessly - this has been discussed at length, and in fact there is a little utility somone put together to do this task without the OEM software. Once the clip is imported or processed properly, ANY NLE should handle the long clip fine, and it will be a single contiguous file.

It's been discussed on DVi and is NOT a problem with proper workflow. It is a result of how the AVCHD spec is implemented along with the file structure on the media in camera, but it's incorrect to describe it as a problem one should expect.

I will note that in fact with Sonys I found you couldn't even use the first file of a long clip until the stitching was done. That's why they come with software for importing.

Robert M Wright · January 14th, 2010, 04:39 PM

You know, eventually, someday we are going to have camcorders that record uncompressed HD video to multi-terabyte flash memory cards the size of pinheads (obviously not anytime soon - or maybe even in our lifetimes). I sure hope we are finally rid of FAT32 by then!

Scott Nelson · January 15th, 2010, 12:26 AM

Robert, I sure can't wait to see that day! But I once talked to a guy who worked a Seagate back when they were designing the first Tb drives. He said the only problem with the larger file sizes is that the data degrades over time.

So, While I have no doubt we could fit a couple megs on a pin head, if we haven't done so already, I doubt that would happen. I just hope that I am wrong.

But its only a matter of time before we could see a system the size of a P2 card that we could record up to 2Tb on one stick, uncompressed and ready just to throw in a edit.

Scott Nelson · January 15th, 2010, 12:27 AM

Sorry, got so excited by the talk of high capacity cards that I forgot what I was going to say...

Basically, I agree with Perrone, I have just recently worked with the AVCHD format and while yes, getting it into the editing is an issue (depending on your software) IT is a great looking system, Fairly easy and quite clear.

Brit Albritton · January 15th, 2010, 07:50 AM

There are some models that leave noticeable gaps at the FAT limit when recording. These include the Samsung SC-HMX20c and the Sanyo HD2000. With these cameras there is nothing you can do about the missing time; the information just isn't there.

Canons are great for this, and have wonderful autofocus, but the latest models have disappointing low light ability.

Gary Nattrass · January 15th, 2010, 08:41 AM

I have a canon HF11 and have been very happy with the results, its AVCHD but easy to handle as I transcode it to pro res in final cut pro for editing.
32gb on board but I tend to use 16gb cards all the time as it is easier to plug them into the macbook pro.
The spec is 1920x1080i 50i or 25p at up to 24mbs so the quality is very very good, it also is small but has a lot of manual settings so is a good all round handycam.
I paid £550 for mine and you can have a look at the quality of the image here:YouTube - British Beef Jerky Shoot 7-8-09

Garrett Low · January 21st, 2010, 11:13 AM

Bart,

A couple of other ways to go would be to get the Sony HVR-MRC1. It will connect to your HV30 via firewire and record to compact flash cards. A 32GB card will give you over 2 hours. I had one I used with my HV20 but sold it when I moved over to a Sony EX3. I kept my HV20 as a backup vacation cam and now I wish I hadn't sold my MRC1. One of the great things about it is that it will continue to record to the CF while you change tapes. You can either record to both tape and CF or just CF.

Or, you could go totally hog wild and get a Convergent Design NanoFlash and record via the HDMI out. Given enough light so that the HV30's sensor behaves nicely, the NanoFlash's picture will blow you away. There are complete discussions on both of these devices over in the Tapeless Video Recording Solutions section.

HVR-MRC1 can be had for around $750 and the NanoFlash for around $3000.

Just some other options.

-Garrett

January 14th, 2010, 09:45 AM	#1
Bart Wierzbicki Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Zonhoven Posts: 153	What is a decent camera for tapeless recording Hi, At this moment I use a HV30 in a fixed setup, but it's only on tape, so it ends after 60min. What camera gives good quality and can film continuesly for about 90 min ?

January 14th, 2010, 10:32 AM	#2
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Probably every AVCHD camera over US$800 would do the job. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

January 14th, 2010, 01:01 PM	#4
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Bruce, just because that happens to you, doesn't mean it happens to all users on all NLEs. I've never had that issue. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

January 14th, 2010, 01:13 PM	#6
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Yes, I agree it could be a problem. However, your statement indicated that it would be a certainty. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

January 15th, 2010, 12:26 AM	#10
Scott Nelson Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 167	Robert, I sure can't wait to see that day! But I once talked to a guy who worked a Seagate back when they were designing the first Tb drives. He said the only problem with the larger file sizes is that the data degrades over time. So, While I have no doubt we could fit a couple megs on a pin head, if we haven't done so already, I doubt that would happen. I just hope that I am wrong. But its only a matter of time before we could see a system the size of a P2 card that we could record up to 2Tb on one stick, uncompressed and ready just to throw in a edit. __________________ Canon XH-A1, Rode NTG-2 DIGITAL NOIR PRODUCTIONS

January 14th, 2010, 12:55 PM	#3
Bruce Phung Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rochester,NY USA Posts: 285	Please note that AVCHD camera recording will breakup into smaller file size like 2gig when playback on camera it will be seamless BUT when you import them into your editing program you will find about 2 frames drop out in the audio. If you want to fix that you will need to find a program to rejoin them before edit. 2gig= to about 17 minutes of recording. So a 90 minutes continue recording will have many small file.

January 14th, 2010, 01:09 PM	#5
Bruce Phung Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rochester,NY USA Posts: 285	Perrone, We can agree or disagree since we do not know what NLE he is using but there is a potentially can happen to what I describe above with avchd cameras.

January 14th, 2010, 01:23 PM	#8
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Bruce - Typically the cameras come with software, which upon importing the files will stitch them back together seamlessly - this has been discussed at length, and in fact there is a little utility somone put together to do this task without the OEM software. Once the clip is imported or processed properly, ANY NLE should handle the long clip fine, and it will be a single contiguous file. It's been discussed on DVi and is NOT a problem with proper workflow. It is a result of how the AVCHD spec is implemented along with the file structure on the media in camera, but it's incorrect to describe it as a problem one should expect. I will note that in fact with Sonys I found you couldn't even use the first file of a long clip until the stitching was done. That's why they come with software for importing.

January 14th, 2010, 04:39 PM	#9
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	You know, eventually, someday we are going to have camcorders that record uncompressed HD video to multi-terabyte flash memory cards the size of pinheads (obviously not anytime soon - or maybe even in our lifetimes). I sure hope we are finally rid of FAT32 by then!

January 15th, 2010, 12:27 AM	#11
Scott Nelson Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 167	Sorry, got so excited by the talk of high capacity cards that I forgot what I was going to say... Basically, I agree with Perrone, I have just recently worked with the AVCHD format and while yes, getting it into the editing is an issue (depending on your software) IT is a great looking system, Fairly easy and quite clear. __________________ Canon XH-A1, Rode NTG-2 DIGITAL NOIR PRODUCTIONS

January 15th, 2010, 07:50 AM	#12
Brit Albritton New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 15	Be careful... There are some models that leave noticeable gaps at the FAT limit when recording. These include the Samsung SC-HMX20c and the Sanyo HD2000. With these cameras there is nothing you can do about the missing time; the information just isn't there. Canons are great for this, and have wonderful autofocus, but the latest models have disappointing low light ability.

January 15th, 2010, 08:41 AM	#13
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	I have a canon HF11 and have been very happy with the results, its AVCHD but easy to handle as I transcode it to pro res in final cut pro for editing. 32gb on board but I tend to use 16gb cards all the time as it is easier to plug them into the macbook pro. The spec is 1920x1080i 50i or 25p at up to 24mbs so the quality is very very good, it also is small but has a lot of manual settings so is a good all round handycam. I paid £550 for mine and you can have a look at the quality of the image here:YouTube - British Beef Jerky Shoot 7-8-09 __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 21st, 2010, 11:13 AM	#14
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	Bart, A couple of other ways to go would be to get the Sony HVR-MRC1. It will connect to your HV30 via firewire and record to compact flash cards. A 32GB card will give you over 2 hours. I had one I used with my HV20 but sold it when I moved over to a Sony EX3. I kept my HV20 as a backup vacation cam and now I wish I hadn't sold my MRC1. One of the great things about it is that it will continue to record to the CF while you change tapes. You can either record to both tape and CF or just CF. Or, you could go totally hog wild and get a Convergent Design NanoFlash and record via the HDMI out. Given enough light so that the HV30's sensor behaves nicely, the NanoFlash's picture will blow you away. There are complete discussions on both of these devices over in the Tapeless Video Recording Solutions section. HVR-MRC1 can be had for around $750 and the NanoFlash for around $3000. Just some other options. -Garrett