Why doesn't any other cam manufacturer do XL2 style cams? at DVinfo.net

Aaron Koolen · January 23rd, 2005, 08:23 PM

This has always struck me as weird that no manufacturer has made some interchangeable lens system camera within that market price range? Or even a camera with the styling of the Xl2, lens and pseudo shoulder mount. I mean, what if Panasonic made a DVX100 that had that shoulder mount look etc.. I don't mean a full rig like the DVC200 but just the XL1s/Xl2 style. I'm shure that could only help. Especially filmmakers and documentarians, no?

Anyone have any insight into this?

Aaron

John Sandel · January 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM

I've thought the same thing.

I expect there's too much fear in the marketing & accounting departments of the various camcorder makers. I remember when Super 8 (& Single-8) cameras began to get "serious" in design & capabilities---that took quite a while ... well, maybe 10 years after the gauge's intro in 1965. A couple companies broke out their system designs in imitation of 16mm, and some lesser makers brought out "consumer" body-types with interchangeable lenses.

I don't know much about camera OEMing, but I'd guess most companies--bottom-line-oriented as they must be--dislike the propects of tooling up an interchangeable lens system, e.g., and competing in the marketing space Canon has defined & refined. Their bread & butter's in lower-end stuff.

I'd be just as happy to see someone market a line of alternative lenses (or even just a lens!) for the XL2 ... seems like the R&D on a basic set of primes wouldn't necessarily ruin one of the still-lens makers.

I mean, I love my Canon 14x manual zoom, but I drool over those rectilinear ultra-wides that stills guys get to shoot with.

JS

Rhett Allen · January 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM

Canon makes lenses not cameras (at least not in the same sense). Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make cameras like you are describing (changeable lenses that is).
What do you think would happen if Sony and Panasonic made similar cameras to the XL series for under $5K? It would probably eat into the sales of their bigger more professional and more expensive cameras. The PD-170, even without it's interchangeable lens has found itself used in the field with just about every broadcast network on the planet. Now if these same networks, who like it because it is small and light and had a decent picture (compared to the 300's and 500's) could buy an XL type Sony DVCAM or Panasonic DVCPRO for around $5K or so, why would they need to spend $15K-$30K+?

Besides, a 1/3" chip isn't really something most professionals go crazy over. It's not like they sit at home wishing they could find a low quality (compared to a 2/3") camera to stick a $20K+ lens on.

Aaron Koolen · January 23rd, 2005, 10:14 PM

But Rhett, those cheaper camers in the PD170 range, are still, as you allude to with the chip size, inferior than the 15K+ systems (Not just in image, but feature). So yeah, pro's will still buy the big ones but wouldn't us lesser mortals be rapt with a DVX100 that looked like the XL2?

Aaron

Rhett Allen · January 23rd, 2005, 10:49 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen! Imagine something in the DVX or PD size and form factor with full manual control and interchangeable lenses and maybe even 1/2" 16:9 chips! Drooool! Canon can get away with more innovation in this particular field because they don't have a Pro Line to cannibalize. (however if Sony and Panny don't wake up soon they may miss the whole niche being created here)
With all the competition in media these days, everyone's trying to cut costs and if they could get closer to the same features and quality with a cheaper unit, they would buy it instead. (maybe not everyone, but many would)
For example, look at DV. It was never really intended as a "PRO" format. It was designed as a "consumer" format, but many pros quickly adopted it. The same thing looks to be happening with HDV.

Simon Wyndham · January 24th, 2005, 02:49 AM

If the same thing is happening with HDV it's mainly because there is no middle ground. The next jump up is to the 50k HDCAM and that's without the lens!

I really feel HDV is being forced upon people at the moment and I don't like it one little bit.

Mark Sasahara · January 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM

I agree with Simon. As consumers, we can refuse to consume a bad format. We don't have to accept what they THINK we want or need.

Jesse Bekas · January 24th, 2005, 10:58 AM

But we will, because HDV "looks" better than DV(25) even if it is more compressed, harder to edit, etc..., etc.... With all the "solutions" being built around the format, it seems like it may be here to stay.

It's up to Panny to come out with something better, that's in a similar price range.

Chris Hurd · January 24th, 2005, 11:03 AM

Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think.

John Sandel · January 24th, 2005, 11:06 AM

"Canon makes [high-end] lenses [but] not cameras ... Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make [lower-end] cameras ..."

Yeah, that's what I meant. It explains the economic decisions. (Sorry I edited you.)

I was surfing for off-brand stills lenses the other day & came across Phoenix's site. Seems an outfit like that could cook (no pun) up a prime or two for the XL2.

JS

Jesse Bekas · January 24th, 2005, 11:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>>

Wow!..really?! I guess they'd hold back some features, but that format for that price range is just awesome.

Richard Alvarez · January 24th, 2005, 11:24 AM

I think it might be interesting, in the business model sense, to look at Avid and FCP as an example of "Canabalizing" a high-end market.

For years, AVID was standard for high end nle's. (Well, it still is, but that's another thread). Along comes APPLE, who DOESN'T manufacture hardware and software for high end suites, but starts offering some of the features that the high end avid suites offer. (Yes, for brevity's sake, I'm leaving out the development of Premier and other NLE's... but the story is the same.)

Avid chose to ignore the lower, "prosumer" market, and low and behold, FCP starts making inroads at the indy level, and the boutique production houses and ad agencies. Finally, Avid jumps on board with XpressDV and the race is on. Anyone who used the professional level Avids, knew at once that the low end line was EXACTLY like the high-end line, but had the feature sets locked away. (Its even possible to buy cracked versions of the software, but they are often buggy and full of virus...not to mention illegal- I don't advocate it)

Why would Avid hesitate to unlock the features alread in the programs? Because Avid didn't want to canabalize or piss-off those high end customers and profit margins.

With every upgrade of FCP, Avid was forced to 'unlock' more features on their Prosumer line in order to compete. The difference seperating the high end systems from the low end now, is pretty thin. In fact, its pretty much distinguised by hardware accelerators.

The lesson here, I think, is that sooner or later the Camera manufacturers will be forced into blurring the feature sets on Prosumer and Professional cameras. Will it dissappear? Not likely, but I think, in the end, the differences will be rayzor thin. Probably as small as a different size of ccd's and a different codec.

Greg Boston · January 24th, 2005, 12:29 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>>

Yeah Chris. I attended a local FCP meeting with an associate recently. The moderator, who does a lot of work in broadcast was explaining HDV (he had his new FX1 with him) and all the different variants of HD.

To make a long story short, he said there are rumors of an 'HDV2' format being introduced at NAB this year that bumps the speed up to 50mbs. As you stated, an interesting year indeed.

I think this may be the year that HD achieves critical mass in the US. Why, well consider that Wal-Mart has hi-def sets in their stores now. Dish Network has a hi-def PVR receiver that has the OTA digital tuner built in. Comcast cable offers hi-def PVR digital packages now. There is now a lot of programming being acquired with HD cams including many of the prime time shows. And the list goes on.

It's gonna be a fun ride!

=gb=

Simon Wyndham · January 24th, 2005, 03:39 PM

Critical mass? Only 7% of households in the US have HD sets.

The features of pro and consumer cameras will never be blurred. All full size cameras have similar control setups/ Once you can use one you can generally use another because all the important controls are in the same place. But there is another side effect. The size of the camera body means much more in the way of complex electronics that lead to a better picture can be incorporated, along with seperate boards for different functions, as opposed to one board that does everything in the smaller cameras.

Pro cameras will always be pro cameras, consumer cameras will always be consumer cameras.

January 23rd, 2005, 08:23 PM	#1
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Why doesn't any other cam manufacturer do XL2 style cams? This has always struck me as weird that no manufacturer has made some interchangeable lens system camera within that market price range? Or even a camera with the styling of the Xl2, lens and pseudo shoulder mount. I mean, what if Panasonic made a DVX100 that had that shoulder mount look etc.. I don't mean a full rig like the DVC200 but just the XL1s/Xl2 style. I'm shure that could only help. Especially filmmakers and documentarians, no? Anyone have any insight into this? Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

January 23rd, 2005, 10:14 PM	#4
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	But Rhett, those cheaper camers in the PD170 range, are still, as you allude to with the chip size, inferior than the 15K+ systems (Not just in image, but feature). So yeah, pro's will still buy the big ones but wouldn't us lesser mortals be rapt with a DVX100 that looked like the XL2? Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

January 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM	#7
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	I agree with Simon. As consumers, we can refuse to consume a bad format. We don't have to accept what they THINK we want or need. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

January 24th, 2005, 11:03 AM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 24th, 2005, 11:06 AM	#10
John Sandel Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: stately Eldora Road Posts: 386	Rhett said ... "Canon makes [high-end] lenses [but] not cameras ... Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make [lower-end] cameras ..." Yeah, that's what I meant. It explains the economic decisions. (Sorry I edited you.) I was surfing for off-brand stills lenses the other day & came across Phoenix's site. Seems an outfit like that could cook (no pun) up a prime or two for the XL2. JS

January 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM	#2
John Sandel Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: stately Eldora Road Posts: 386	I've thought the same thing. I expect there's too much fear in the marketing & accounting departments of the various camcorder makers. I remember when Super 8 (& Single-8) cameras began to get "serious" in design & capabilities---that took quite a while ... well, maybe 10 years after the gauge's intro in 1965. A couple companies broke out their system designs in imitation of 16mm, and some lesser makers brought out "consumer" body-types with interchangeable lenses. I don't know much about camera OEMing, but I'd guess most companies--bottom-line-oriented as they must be--dislike the propects of tooling up an interchangeable lens system, e.g., and competing in the marketing space Canon has defined & refined. Their bread & butter's in lower-end stuff. I'd be just as happy to see someone market a line of alternative lenses (or even just a lens!) for the XL2 ... seems like the R&D on a basic set of primes wouldn't necessarily ruin one of the still-lens makers. I mean, I love my Canon 14x manual zoom, but I drool over those rectilinear ultra-wides that stills guys get to shoot with. JS

January 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM	#3
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	Canon makes lenses not cameras (at least not in the same sense). Panasonic and Sony make PRO cameras and they make cameras like you are describing (changeable lenses that is). What do you think would happen if Sony and Panasonic made similar cameras to the XL series for under $5K? It would probably eat into the sales of their bigger more professional and more expensive cameras. The PD-170, even without it's interchangeable lens has found itself used in the field with just about every broadcast network on the planet. Now if these same networks, who like it because it is small and light and had a decent picture (compared to the 300's and 500's) could buy an XL type Sony DVCAM or Panasonic DVCPRO for around $5K or so, why would they need to spend $15K-$30K+? Besides, a 1/3" chip isn't really something most professionals go crazy over. It's not like they sit at home wishing they could find a low quality (compared to a 2/3") camera to stick a $20K+ lens on.

January 23rd, 2005, 10:49 PM	#5
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	Oh, don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen! Imagine something in the DVX or PD size and form factor with full manual control and interchangeable lenses and maybe even 1/2" 16:9 chips! Drooool! Canon can get away with more innovation in this particular field because they don't have a Pro Line to cannibalize. (however if Sony and Panny don't wake up soon they may miss the whole niche being created here) With all the competition in media these days, everyone's trying to cut costs and if they could get closer to the same features and quality with a cheaper unit, they would buy it instead. (maybe not everyone, but many would) For example, look at DV. It was never really intended as a "PRO" format. It was designed as a "consumer" format, but many pros quickly adopted it. The same thing looks to be happening with HDV.

January 24th, 2005, 02:49 AM	#6
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	If the same thing is happening with HDV it's mainly because there is no middle ground. The next jump up is to the 50k HDCAM and that's without the lens! I really feel HDV is being forced upon people at the moment and I don't like it one little bit.

January 24th, 2005, 10:58 AM	#8
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	But we will, because HDV "looks" better than DV(25) even if it is more compressed, harder to edit, etc..., etc.... With all the "solutions" being built around the format, it seems like it may be here to stay. It's up to Panny to come out with something better, that's in a similar price range.

January 24th, 2005, 11:21 AM	#11
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>> Wow!..really?! I guess they'd hold back some features, but that format for that price range is just awesome.

January 24th, 2005, 11:24 AM	#12
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I think it might be interesting, in the business model sense, to look at Avid and FCP as an example of "Canabalizing" a high-end market. For years, AVID was standard for high end nle's. (Well, it still is, but that's another thread). Along comes APPLE, who DOESN'T manufacture hardware and software for high end suites, but starts offering some of the features that the high end avid suites offer. (Yes, for brevity's sake, I'm leaving out the development of Premier and other NLE's... but the story is the same.) Avid chose to ignore the lower, "prosumer" market, and low and behold, FCP starts making inroads at the indy level, and the boutique production houses and ad agencies. Finally, Avid jumps on board with XpressDV and the race is on. Anyone who used the professional level Avids, knew at once that the low end line was EXACTLY like the high-end line, but had the feature sets locked away. (Its even possible to buy cracked versions of the software, but they are often buggy and full of virus...not to mention illegal- I don't advocate it) Why would Avid hesitate to unlock the features alread in the programs? Because Avid didn't want to canabalize or piss-off those high end customers and profit margins. With every upgrade of FCP, Avid was forced to 'unlock' more features on their Prosumer line in order to compete. The difference seperating the high end systems from the low end now, is pretty thin. In fact, its pretty much distinguised by hardware accelerators. The lesson here, I think, is that sooner or later the Camera manufacturers will be forced into blurring the feature sets on Prosumer and Professional cameras. Will it dissappear? Not likely, but I think, in the end, the differences will be rayzor thin. Probably as small as a different size of ccd's and a different codec.

January 24th, 2005, 12:29 PM	#13
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Rumors are flying thick about Panasonic introducing a sub-$10K camera in their 100 megabit DVCPro HD format. This is going to be a very interesting year, I think. -->>> Yeah Chris. I attended a local FCP meeting with an associate recently. The moderator, who does a lot of work in broadcast was explaining HDV (he had his new FX1 with him) and all the different variants of HD. To make a long story short, he said there are rumors of an 'HDV2' format being introduced at NAB this year that bumps the speed up to 50mbs. As you stated, an interesting year indeed. I think this may be the year that HD achieves critical mass in the US. Why, well consider that Wal-Mart has hi-def sets in their stores now. Dish Network has a hi-def PVR receiver that has the OTA digital tuner built in. Comcast cable offers hi-def PVR digital packages now. There is now a lot of programming being acquired with HD cams including many of the prime time shows. And the list goes on. It's gonna be a fun ride! =gb=

January 24th, 2005, 03:39 PM	#14
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Critical mass? Only 7% of households in the US have HD sets. The features of pro and consumer cameras will never be blurred. All full size cameras have similar control setups/ Once you can use one you can generally use another because all the important controls are in the same place. But there is another side effect. The size of the camera body means much more in the way of complex electronics that lead to a better picture can be incorporated, along with seperate boards for different functions, as opposed to one board that does everything in the smaller cameras. Pro cameras will always be pro cameras, consumer cameras will always be consumer cameras.