The gigantic "which camera should I buy" thread!

Gene Timothy · August 6th, 2006, 04:09 PM

Was your promo shot with the PD 150/170's cameras?? Did you do any post clean-up of the video or was it all raw and just edited for content??

Thanks

Dean Sensui · August 6th, 2006, 07:23 PM

Gene...

The promo for the show on the website was shot with a Sony PD-150, PD-170 and a Canon XL1s. Everything we do is color corrected in post. I don't think there's ever a time when something doesn't get fixed along the way, unless we absolutely run out of time. Two of us edit the show and we're using Final Cut Pro.

And if there's enough time, I even do secondary spot corrections in After Effects to lighten or darken specific areas in a shot.

Gene Timothy · August 6th, 2006, 07:29 PM

Thanks for the quick response:) We have access to both the PD150 and PD170. We're going to do some test shots this week. Any suggestions on settings? or do you use full auto mode?

We really appreciate your help on this:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Sensui

Gene...

The promo for the show on the website was shot with a Sony PD-150, PD-170 and a Canon XL1s. Everything we do is color corrected in post. I don't think there's ever a time when something doesn't get fixed along the way, unless we absolutely run out of time. Two of us edit the show and we're using Final Cut Pro.

And if there's enough time, I even do secondary spot corrections in After Effects to lighten or darken specific areas in a shot.

Dean Sensui · August 6th, 2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Timothy

Any suggestions on settings? or do you use full auto mode?

We really appreciate your help on this:)

Glad to help.

I usually have the audio controls set to auto.

Everything else is on manual. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to use manual exposure, white balance and focus. There isn't a camera out there that can accurately figure out if it's a light object against a dark background or a dark object against a bright background.

Camera metering systems always try to get everything to an average brightness and the result is dark faces against back-lighted backgrounds or burned out skin tones against dark backgrounds.

And automatic focus systems will often focus on the wrong target or annoyingly hunt focus during a shot.

In 24 years of doing newspaper photography I've always turned off every automatic feature on my cameras, having learned to not trust them with anything critical. When I got into video production, I did the same thing although I do rely on limiters to keep my audio tracks from getting blown out by loud transients.

Speaking of audio: Get a good wireless lav system and replace the on-camera stock mic with something that has better performance and good wind protection. I have a couple of samples of shots online in which I was using an Audio Technica AT-4051a as an on-camera mic. It's worked very well for me on a number of occasions, especially since the talent is often fairly close to the camera and it's usually a two-shot. A shotgun mic's coverage is too tight for this, and it's also easily fouled up by wind noise.

Sample clip of two guys talking about a lure:
http://www.hawaiigoesfishing.com/vid...51a_sample.mp4

Audio sample of string quartet from 7 feet away:
http://www.hawaiigoesfishing.com/videos/4051sample.aif

Some nice weather covers for the camera are made by Kata. Easily put on and allows easy access to the controls. I have one for my Panasonic HVX-200 and like it a lot better than the one made by Petrol or PortaBrace.

Having a monopod helps. Especially if you need to be able to move around a lot and can't drag a tripod around all the time.

And be sure to monitor the audio constantly. I use a pair of Etymotics that I got from an Apple Store which are comfortable, easily inserted into the ear, have good fidelity, and isolates me from external noise.

Good luck with your show!

Gareth Watkins · August 7th, 2006, 12:54 AM

Hi there

I've been using a Z1 to shoot a series of web videos on carp fishing, as well as a couple of longer 1 hour documentary style films again on fishing.

It is a great camera for my needs, lovely quality, excellent audio, light and handles nicely in often fast moving situations...

It will deliver better quality than the PD170 giving you the benefit of 16:9, which to my mind is a far, far nicer format for video, and will be pretty much standard pretty soon, if not already on many channels.

Regards
Gareth

Gene Timothy · August 7th, 2006, 12:04 PM

Gareth,

Can you post some examples of your video? I would like to compare the two:)
We only have access to the SOny PD150/170 and the sony HDR-HC1 as well as the lavalier mics. This is all the rental house near us has:( We are hesitant to spend a large amount of $$ until we are satisfied with the results, etc

Thanks

Evan Digby · August 7th, 2006, 04:45 PM

I'm looking to purchase a camera which will get good quality video in a rock concert type atmosphere. I would guess this means great low-light, but also the ability to deal with the stage lights etc. I'm not terribly concerned about the audio it will pick up, as I will be patching an audio recorder directly into the board.

I'm living a bit in the past when it comes to equipment, as I'm just returning to a hobby I had 10 years ago, so please bare with my newb questions!

Thank you,

Evan

Jesse Redman · August 8th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Evan,

This is a pretty broad subject. It might help to know what price range you are considering.

The problem is that we (members of DVi) are mostly partial to what we have chosen as our camera. The result is that most would suggest what we own.

Are some cameras better than others for specific tasks? Probably, but once a shooter gets used to a particular camera, they know how to adjust for that task with the tools they have at hand.

Chris Hurd and several others did a "shoot out":
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...=hurd+shootout

The net result was that each camera had advantages and disadvantages and that the creativity of the shooter was more important than the camera.

My advice would be to look at cameras that fall within the price range that you feel comfortable with and come back with a "Which is better" post, listing the two or three that you are considering. Individuals that own the cameras you ask about are likely to give you their opinion about how their camera will or will not fit your need.

I know this didn't help much but maybe it's a starting place.

Jeff Phelps · August 8th, 2006, 03:46 PM

It's been my experience that most concerts have adequate light even for cameras that aren't real good in low light. If you're in a bar or some other place where it isn't a well known act you might have problems with not enough light but all of the big acts I've shot had plenty of light. The lights are going to be pointed at the band too so you shouldn't have problems from lights that are too bright pointed at the camera as long as you aren't shooting from behind the band. I think people would forgive glare in the video if you did shoot some from behind the band.

Evan Digby · August 8th, 2006, 04:03 PM

Thank you both for the advice, I will do some research. Unfortuantely most of the footage I will be getting will be bar/club/small venue rather than stadium. I'm not worried about small venue concerts, as they typically have descent lighting -- it's the bars and pubs I'm worried about.

The camera comparison thread seems to be more about HD(V?), and I am looking to purchase DV equipment -- unless I can be convinced that HD and HDV cameras provide a significant improvment into the low-light recording situation.

In the meantime, to get more specific, I have been looking into the XL2, but I have heard that it's ability to handle low-light situations isn't the greatest -- I really have no experience to back this up -- does anyone have any advice on this?

Steve House · August 9th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Digby

...

The camera comparison thread seems to be more about HD(V?), and I am looking to purchase DV equipment -- unless I can be convinced that HD and HDV cameras provide a significant improvment into the low-light recording situation.

...

HD/HDV cameras tend to have poorer low-light abilities versus SD, not better, so they definitely won't offer any improvement in that regard. However the better image clarity and detail, even if the material ultimately is to be downrezzed to SD for final delivery, may make up for the higher light requirements.

Don Bazley · August 27th, 2006, 03:57 PM

Hello folks!

I've been working in professional video for 20 years and have been teaching it for 13 of those years. I've decided to start up a wedding business (full-time... I'll also take on other projects and continue teaching part-time). I have owned a XL1 for 6 years or so. I only use it as a personal cam for mostly shooting live music. I have never been happy with the XL1 in low light. The black level is way too low on that cam but it sure does get beautiful pictures given the right light. Since I'll be doing many weddings I want to have 2 cams that will work well together (in low light). I'm thinking of either the PD170 (does that shoot in 16:9?) or a VX2100 (pretty sure that doesn't shoot 16:9). Or perhaps I should consider a newer Canon to work with my XL1 (wasn't the black level issue fixed on the XL1-S?). I guess I'm thinking I can use whatever low-light cam I choose as the main (wide) shot and use the XL-1 for close ups. Another thing I could consider would be buying 2 low-light cams for weddings. Any thoughts on this are appreciated. I would have posted this to the 'acquisition' board but I figured I'd put it here since people that do weddings have many experiences in poor lighting situations. :)

-Don Bazley
Ithaca, NY

Robert Johnston · August 28th, 2006, 02:23 AM

Im not sure I can be any help but i do own a pd170p. You will need a camera that can nearly match its low light capabilities unless you plan to use a light on the camera. The light option is not always apropiate though. Also if you are thinking of spending that amount of cash you should also consider hd format in the future. A year or two down the line it will be all the rage and many will by then have hd dvd's and want hd. I was looking at buying a sony hvr z1 and using its sd capabilities until the market opens up in a year or so time. I know this camera is £1000 more than the pd170p but it may be worth it as you wont have to buy it two years down the line and find the pd170p is next to worthless.

The pd170p does shoot in native 16:9 so does the z1. Sorry I cant help with the cannon cameras as I did not like the look of them.

ps I have to admit I love the pd170p but the z1 out preforms it but not in low light siturations. My thinking is use the pd170p for the low light siturations and the z1 for all other shoots.

Just my two cents worth as they say.

Sorry I just realised you are from america, the prices of cameras there are alot cheaper than here so disrecard the price differance.

Don Bazley · August 28th, 2006, 09:53 AM

Thank you Robert. I appreciate what you are saying about HD. After giving it quite a bit of thought I think I've decided to stay with SD for now and buy a new HD camera (and edit system) about 3 years from now. From what I hear, the HD cams are generally not very good in low light. I will be doing mostly weddings so the low light issue is very important. I am concerned about matching the low-light performance of the PD170 (if that is what I end up getting). Maybe for now I need to buy 2 PD170s and save cash over the next couple of years to go HD. Like I said in my post, I may be able to get one PD170, use that as the main cam and do close-ups with the XL1. (?)

The HD transition issue gets me to thinking about what I would do once I got a HD camera. I'm wondering what it will look like to mix HD with a SD camera. I sure don't want to have to buy 2 HD cams when I do upgrade. Have you heard any thoughts on this issue?

-Don
(an American fan of Irish music and Guiness) :)

Robert Johnston · August 28th, 2006, 10:47 AM

In sd mode i think it would be reasonably easy to match the two though i have heard it being said that even in sd mode the z1 gives a slightly better picture in the right light conditions of course. I'm in a better condition to you as i already own a pd170, and am now able to upgrade to a hd knowing that i have a camera that can shoot well in low light when i need too. This will become obsolete of course once hd hits as sd cant match hd quality. I hope when hd hits that i will then be able to buy a camera in hd formate with the same capabilities as the pd170 in low light, that is my game plan any hows. Hoping there is technology out there for that to happen and that sony reconize that we need a camera like the pd170 and it's capabilities. My fear is that sony will sell it as a feature and expect a lot of money for it.

As for buying two hd cameras down the line that is what will probely happen, as like i said hd out preforms sd and is very noticable if you put them side by side or a clip back to back. Don't want to influence your designation but hd is coming, and unless you think you can make a lot of money in the next three years to buy two hd cameras or are able to still sell sd formate to your costumers, then it has to be weighed up.

If you are quick with editing also think of doing commercials in the slack months of the year for extra income and tape transfers to dvd, it all adds up. I offer raw footage to be taken at the wedding then edited down the line when the couple have more money this also helps in the winter time as this is when i will decide to edit such footage.

Any body else got advise as i know there is for more experianced guys and girls out there.

August 6th, 2006, 07:23 PM	#1172
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Gene... The promo for the show on the website was shot with a Sony PD-150, PD-170 and a Canon XL1s. Everything we do is color corrected in post. I don't think there's ever a time when something doesn't get fixed along the way, unless we absolutely run out of time. Two of us edit the show and we're using Final Cut Pro. And if there's enough time, I even do secondary spot corrections in After Effects to lighten or darken specific areas in a shot. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

August 7th, 2006, 12:04 PM	#1176
Gene Timothy New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 8	Gareth, Can you post some examples of your video? I would like to compare the two:) We only have access to the SOny PD150/170 and the sony HDR-HC1 as well as the lavalier mics. This is all the rental house near us has:( We are hesitant to spend a large amount of $$ until we are satisfied with the results, etc Thanks Last edited by Gene Timothy; August 7th, 2006 at 01:08 PM.

August 7th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#1177
Evan Digby New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 7	Camera for Concert Footage I'm looking to purchase a camera which will get good quality video in a rock concert type atmosphere. I would guess this means great low-light, but also the ability to deal with the stage lights etc. I'm not terribly concerned about the audio it will pick up, as I will be patching an audio recorder directly into the board. I'm living a bit in the past when it comes to equipment, as I'm just returning to a hobby I had 10 years ago, so please bare with my newb questions! Thank you, Evan

August 8th, 2006, 02:18 PM	#1178
Jesse Redman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Cedar Park, Texas Posts: 182	Evan, This is a pretty broad subject. It might help to know what price range you are considering. The problem is that we (members of DVi) are mostly partial to what we have chosen as our camera. The result is that most would suggest what we own. Are some cameras better than others for specific tasks? Probably, but once a shooter gets used to a particular camera, they know how to adjust for that task with the tools they have at hand. Chris Hurd and several others did a "shoot out": http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...=hurd+shootout The net result was that each camera had advantages and disadvantages and that the creativity of the shooter was more important than the camera. My advice would be to look at cameras that fall within the price range that you feel comfortable with and come back with a "Which is better" post, listing the two or three that you are considering. Individuals that own the cameras you ask about are likely to give you their opinion about how their camera will or will not fit your need. I know this didn't help much but maybe it's a starting place. __________________ - Jesse XL2 - Vegas - DVDA - Sound Forge - Acid Pro - Cubase SX 3

August 27th, 2006, 03:57 PM	#1182
Don Bazley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 149	cam to compliment my XL1? Hello folks! I've been working in professional video for 20 years and have been teaching it for 13 of those years. I've decided to start up a wedding business (full-time... I'll also take on other projects and continue teaching part-time). I have owned a XL1 for 6 years or so. I only use it as a personal cam for mostly shooting live music. I have never been happy with the XL1 in low light. The black level is way too low on that cam but it sure does get beautiful pictures given the right light. Since I'll be doing many weddings I want to have 2 cams that will work well together (in low light). I'm thinking of either the PD170 (does that shoot in 16:9?) or a VX2100 (pretty sure that doesn't shoot 16:9). Or perhaps I should consider a newer Canon to work with my XL1 (wasn't the black level issue fixed on the XL1-S?). I guess I'm thinking I can use whatever low-light cam I choose as the main (wide) shot and use the XL-1 for close ups. Another thing I could consider would be buying 2 low-light cams for weddings. Any thoughts on this are appreciated. I would have posted this to the 'acquisition' board but I figured I'd put it here since people that do weddings have many experiences in poor lighting situations. :) -Don Bazley Ithaca, NY

August 6th, 2006, 04:09 PM	#1171
Gene Timothy New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 8	Was your promo shot with the PD 150/170's cameras?? Did you do any post clean-up of the video or was it all raw and just edited for content?? Thanks

August 7th, 2006, 12:54 AM	#1175
Gareth Watkins Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: France Posts: 578	Hi there I've been using a Z1 to shoot a series of web videos on carp fishing, as well as a couple of longer 1 hour documentary style films again on fishing. It is a great camera for my needs, lovely quality, excellent audio, light and handles nicely in often fast moving situations... It will deliver better quality than the PD170 giving you the benefit of 16:9, which to my mind is a far, far nicer format for video, and will be pretty much standard pretty soon, if not already on many channels. Regards Gareth

August 8th, 2006, 03:46 PM	#1179
Jeff Phelps Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Franklin Furnace, Ohio Posts: 74	It's been my experience that most concerts have adequate light even for cameras that aren't real good in low light. If you're in a bar or some other place where it isn't a well known act you might have problems with not enough light but all of the big acts I've shot had plenty of light. The lights are going to be pointed at the band too so you shouldn't have problems from lights that are too bright pointed at the camera as long as you aren't shooting from behind the band. I think people would forgive glare in the video if you did shoot some from behind the band.

August 8th, 2006, 04:03 PM	#1180
Evan Digby New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 7	Thank you both for the advice, I will do some research. Unfortuantely most of the footage I will be getting will be bar/club/small venue rather than stadium. I'm not worried about small venue concerts, as they typically have descent lighting -- it's the bars and pubs I'm worried about. The camera comparison thread seems to be more about HD(V?), and I am looking to purchase DV equipment -- unless I can be convinced that HD and HDV cameras provide a significant improvment into the low-light recording situation. In the meantime, to get more specific, I have been looking into the XL2, but I have heard that it's ability to handle low-light situations isn't the greatest -- I really have no experience to back this up -- does anyone have any advice on this?

August 28th, 2006, 02:23 AM	#1183
Robert Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: northern ireland Posts: 57	Im not sure I can be any help but i do own a pd170p. You will need a camera that can nearly match its low light capabilities unless you plan to use a light on the camera. The light option is not always apropiate though. Also if you are thinking of spending that amount of cash you should also consider hd format in the future. A year or two down the line it will be all the rage and many will by then have hd dvd's and want hd. I was looking at buying a sony hvr z1 and using its sd capabilities until the market opens up in a year or so time. I know this camera is £1000 more than the pd170p but it may be worth it as you wont have to buy it two years down the line and find the pd170p is next to worthless. The pd170p does shoot in native 16:9 so does the z1. Sorry I cant help with the cannon cameras as I did not like the look of them. ps I have to admit I love the pd170p but the z1 out preforms it but not in low light siturations. My thinking is use the pd170p for the low light siturations and the z1 for all other shoots. Just my two cents worth as they say. Sorry I just realised you are from america, the prices of cameras there are alot cheaper than here so disrecard the price differance.

August 28th, 2006, 09:53 AM	#1184
Don Bazley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 149	Thank you Robert. I appreciate what you are saying about HD. After giving it quite a bit of thought I think I've decided to stay with SD for now and buy a new HD camera (and edit system) about 3 years from now. From what I hear, the HD cams are generally not very good in low light. I will be doing mostly weddings so the low light issue is very important. I am concerned about matching the low-light performance of the PD170 (if that is what I end up getting). Maybe for now I need to buy 2 PD170s and save cash over the next couple of years to go HD. Like I said in my post, I may be able to get one PD170, use that as the main cam and do close-ups with the XL1. (?) The HD transition issue gets me to thinking about what I would do once I got a HD camera. I'm wondering what it will look like to mix HD with a SD camera. I sure don't want to have to buy 2 HD cams when I do upgrade. Have you heard any thoughts on this issue? -Don (an American fan of Irish music and Guiness) :)

August 28th, 2006, 10:47 AM	#1185
Robert Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: northern ireland Posts: 57	In sd mode i think it would be reasonably easy to match the two though i have heard it being said that even in sd mode the z1 gives a slightly better picture in the right light conditions of course. I'm in a better condition to you as i already own a pd170, and am now able to upgrade to a hd knowing that i have a camera that can shoot well in low light when i need too. This will become obsolete of course once hd hits as sd cant match hd quality. I hope when hd hits that i will then be able to buy a camera in hd formate with the same capabilities as the pd170 in low light, that is my game plan any hows. Hoping there is technology out there for that to happen and that sony reconize that we need a camera like the pd170 and it's capabilities. My fear is that sony will sell it as a feature and expect a lot of money for it. As for buying two hd cameras down the line that is what will probely happen, as like i said hd out preforms sd and is very noticable if you put them side by side or a clip back to back. Don't want to influence your designation but hd is coming, and unless you think you can make a lot of money in the next three years to buy two hd cameras or are able to still sell sd formate to your costumers, then it has to be weighed up. If you are quick with editing also think of doing commercials in the slack months of the year for extra income and tape transfers to dvd, it all adds up. I offer raw footage to be taken at the wedding then edited down the line when the couple have more money this also helps in the winter time as this is when i will decide to edit such footage. Any body else got advise as i know there is for more experianced guys and girls out there.