The gigantic "which camera should I buy" thread!

John Britt · April 26th, 2004, 01:24 PM

<<<--
Another thing about this cam to watch out for is the EIS. Don't use it. Ever. On my unit, at least, it degrades picture quality to the point where I thought I needed to get my heads cleaned for the second time in the same month. -->>>

I'm confused how the EIS can cause any trouble with a camera's heads. EIS is electronic, not physical. And yes, it can degrage the image somewhat (this is common knowledge) -- but only because of the way it *electronically* interpolates the jittery footage. How would it cause head wear or gunking?

Michael Gibbons · April 26th, 2004, 02:06 PM

Hmmm.. In no way did I mean to imply that I though the EIS damaged the heads. what I was trying to say was that the image degradation was so severe that it actully resembled the so called "mosaic style dropout" one encounters with dirty heads. This would be my reasoning behind using the "thought" in my sentence. If the EIS had actually casued head wear, which is, as you so astutley point out, impossible, I would have selected another word. Furthermore, I also made it a point to mention that this problem might be specific to my unit. Apparently, I need to work on my communication skills.
I will be more careful in the future.
Thanks
Michael

Norm Couture · April 26th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Michael,
EIS degrades the picture when light is not sufficient.
Most EIS systems set the default shutter speed at 1/100 sec. instead of standard 1/60 (NTSC). That's why, whenever the light goes dim, you'll have heavy grain and noise in your stabilized picture coming from the electronic gain pushed beyond +9dB to +15 or +18dB to compensate for too fast a shutter. Nothing of the sort happens in bright daylight but, for indoors or evening shots, use a tripod and turn EIS OFF to take advantage of regular 1/60 shutter speed.
Optical stabilizers found on more expensive camcorders do not interfere with shutter speeds.

John Britt · April 26th, 2004, 02:41 PM

Michael -- sorry, I thought you were saying that you had already once cleaned the heads because of the EIS and thought you needed to do it again. My poor comprehension skills may also be at play here :)

Certainly, this sounds like a problem unique to your camera that you should get checked out. The EIS on my DV53 does not cause degradation of the type you mentioned. Norm is correct that the EIS defaults to a faster shutter speed, but with the DV53, you can press the Manual button and drop back down to 1/60 while keeping the EIS on.

Michael Gibbons · April 26th, 2004, 03:32 PM

John, Norm, thanks.
Who could fix such a thing? I've kind of learned to compensate for it- by never using the EIS- but I would love to get it working right. Except I'm cheap and I don't want to spend big money on what is soon to be my second cam.

Anyway, sorry if I seemed a bit snarky in my last post. I was recently promoted and the new postion is making me nuts.

Michael

Josh Shemroske · April 27th, 2004, 08:18 AM

I have been looking at cameras for almost a year now, planning my attack for purchasing a camera. I have started out buy accuiring a mac ready for video editing. Now I have been in the market for a camera, and was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers. I am looking to spend the least amount possible for a camera that will capture great visuals and quality sound. I have been pointed towards looking at a camera with a 3 ccd and I have heard that panasonics have a great lense. The camera will be used for some short lenth clips and possibly some large ones. I am also going to India and Sri Lanka to study villages and landscapes and record it all on film. so any advice for a novice would be great. I learn really fast so a reasonably complex camera would be perfect, but I probably dont want a professional style since I would most likely be overwhelmed both with its functions and its price.

any second hand opputunites would be great to know about aswell.thanks a bunch Josh Shemroske

John Britt · April 27th, 2004, 09:53 AM

Michael, no problem. I've been rather curmudgeonly recently, myself. I think it's because of all the pollen we have here :)

Unless your DV53 is under warranty, I don't know that I would bother with it. I bought my DV53 as a "fun" camera -- not necessarily disposable, per se, but one that I wouldn't mind giving a beating, so that my DVC80 wouldn't have to. While I don't think that $300 is chump change, it is a pretty inexpensive cam, relatively speaking. And if the cost of fixing the EIS is even $100 (factoring in shipping, etc), it seems like too much to spend on a $300 cam.

If you're getting a 3 chipper soon, then I'd say save your money.

Frank Granovski · April 27th, 2004, 02:28 PM

Quote:

I am looking to spend the least amount possible for a camera that will capture great visuals and quality sound.

The Pana NV-MX500 or the new NV-GS400 when it comes out. If you want to spend more and you need the XLR, consider a Sony PDX10.

Shawn Mielke · April 27th, 2004, 04:24 PM

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=314961&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=276528&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=249633&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=252192&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=277532&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=316087&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=303956&is=REG

Shawn Mielke · April 27th, 2004, 04:31 PM

The PDX10 has very good sound with XLR inputs and stunning 16:9. Small form is good too.

The DVC80 is the best deal going right now, with it's larger CCDs, it's manual controls, it's wide lens, it's XLRs, and, of course, it's price.

These are my rec.s, without knowing your budget.

Julian Luttrell · April 30th, 2004, 08:39 AM

Hi all,

I am helping a local residential school to upgrade and modernise its inhouse TV studio. They operate a 3 camera studio with full online editing capabilities - the purpose is to promote team working, not have individual children working on offline computers you see. Most children using this studio are 8-12 years old.

They have a limited budget, so need the most cost effective way to improve the qulaity of their results and future proofing.

First I am looking for advice on what to do about the cameras. Currently they have old, old, old, analogue cameras (not camcorders) feeding svideo to a live vision mixer. I suggest that they stay for now with the svideo signal path, and replace the cameras with modern digital camcorders with good low light level performance and the widest possible lens as standard (so they are good indoors/close up).

What's a good camera for this brief? For starters, any price point is good. Any suggestions maybe for cost-effective cameras (not camcorders) if such exist. How robust are these cameras - this kit needs to last a long time. If it's a camcorder, does it work fine (svideo and audio output) with no tape? Balanced audio would be good, but I know it doesn't usually happen at cheaper pricepoints - but these cams will be permanently tripod-mounted and have separate audio path most of the time, so it's not a must-have.

How about a fourth camera to be used off site? Again, robust is the keyword here. Easy to handle by children (so not too complex, but with manual override should Steven Spielberg's children drop in...)

Secondly, they are currently mastering to SVHS which is a major quality bottleneck. Given they want to have loads of kids involved, they need to keep this online online setup, and I have suggested mastering to DV. They can do this without changing anything else out - cabling (svideo) or vision mixers. They can also bring in third party recoded DV material on tape.

What's a good deck for this use? It would need 1394 i/o, svideo and composite i/o (must have), and XLR balanced audio. Supporting both small and large tapes with no "adapter". Robust (to last for years). They will need two of these, with an editing controller.

I would love to hear suggestions - fire away!

Regards,

Julian

Glenn Chan · April 30th, 2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

They will need two of these, with an editing controller.

Aren't you going to edit with a non-linear editing program? iMovie I've found is *really* easy to use although it doesn't handle large projects well. It has changed since I've used it and don't know if it's gotten less buggier or more.

2- Maybe quality isn't as important as what the kids get out of it. If learning is the primary goal then I'd go for equipment that is easy to use and not too restrictive (you have a degree of creative freedom). However, a reasonable level of quality is good to have. The three biggest flaws in low budget productions are usually bad content (this is the most important) followed by shaky camerawork and poor sound.

Quote:

If it's a camcorder, does it work fine (svideo and audio output) with no tape?

I'm not sure what the distinction between a camera and a camcorder is. But anyways, I think you'll find that camcorders will ALWAYS turn off if you have a tape in there (and the camcorder is in camera mode, not VTR). If there is not tape in there and there is adapter power then most should stay on forever.

Manual controls on consumer cameras usually aren't that useful. They are useful if you only need one setting (i.e. fixed focus). Changing focus is going to be nearly impossible. Changing exposure on the fly usually won't work. Nearly all cameras change exposure in steps (the change occurs in steps and isn't gradual). The newest Sony cameras don't do that with spot exposure but you'll find the exposure control very difficult to operate.

Iris and shutter speed controls would be nice... but IMO kids won't learn too much from using those. Manual white balance is nice and some cameras have that.

Tommy Haupfear · April 30th, 2004, 10:21 AM

How about the Panasonic AG-DVC7 for right around $1000? It was designed for middle and high school.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=274107&is=REG

Julian Luttrell · April 30th, 2004, 10:32 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aren't you going to edit with a non-linear editing program? iMovie I've found is *really* easy to use although it doesn't handle large projects well. It has changed since I've used it and don't know if it's gotten less buggier or more.
------------------------------------------------------------

No we are not. The important thing about this is that it is NOT a "learn how to make a video" class. It's a "learn how to work in a team" experience. The video creation is not the prime objective, but the coordination of different people doing different things is. Hence the online solution.

Having said that, there is a technician who will try to offline edit anything that just looks crap after the online work...

Quote
-------------------------------------------------
2- Maybe quality isn't as important as what the kids get out of it. If learning is the primary goal then I'd go for equipment that is easy to use and not too restrictive (you have a degree of creative freedom). However, a reasonable level of quality is good to have. The three biggest flaws in low budget productions are usually bad content (this is the most important) followed by shaky camerawork and poor sound.
-------------------------------------------------

Fortunately shaky footage and bad quality sound aren't an issue here - they have solid tripods all round, and good quality microphones and interconnects. Content - well, yes, this is children's output... But the quality of the final result here is low because it is a second generation VHS dub - it is this last proble I want to solve.

quote:
-------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure what the distinction between a camera and a camcorder is.
--------------------------------------

A camcorder has a tape recording device built in. A camera doesn't - it outputs down a cable..

I agree with what you're saying about consumer camcorder manual control not being really useful/useable. That's why I am asking to see if there are any higher end consumer/lower end professional camcorders that may suit here.

From my experinec consumer camcorders are just not robust - so probably not suitable for this environment - but I stand to be convinced.

Julian

Julian Luttrell · April 30th, 2004, 10:38 AM

Tommy,

that looks interesting. Do you know if there is a PAL version available?

Julian

April 26th, 2004, 01:24 PM	#361
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	Re: DV53 <<<-- Another thing about this cam to watch out for is the EIS. Don't use it. Ever. On my unit, at least, it degrades picture quality to the point where I thought I needed to get my heads cleaned for the second time in the same month. -->>> I'm confused how the EIS can cause any trouble with a camera's heads. EIS is electronic, not physical. And yes, it can degrage the image somewhat (this is common knowledge) -- but only because of the way it electronically interpolates the jittery footage. How would it cause head wear or gunking?

April 26th, 2004, 02:06 PM	#362
Michael Gibbons Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Loveland, Colorado, USA Posts: 292	Hmmm.. In no way did I mean to imply that I though the EIS damaged the heads. what I was trying to say was that the image degradation was so severe that it actully resembled the so called "mosaic style dropout" one encounters with dirty heads. This would be my reasoning behind using the "thought" in my sentence. If the EIS had actually casued head wear, which is, as you so astutley point out, impossible, I would have selected another word. Furthermore, I also made it a point to mention that this problem might be specific to my unit. Apparently, I need to work on my communication skills. I will be more careful in the future. Thanks Michael __________________ " When some wild-eyed, eight foot tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head against a bar room wall, and looks you crooked in the eye, and he asks you if you've payed your dues, well, you just stare that big suker right back in the eye, and you remember what old Jack Burton always says at a time like that, 'Have you paid your dues, Jack? Yes sir, the check is in the mail."

April 26th, 2004, 02:31 PM	#363
Norm Couture Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Quebec, QC, Canada Posts: 123	EIS and image degradation Michael, EIS degrades the picture when light is not sufficient. Most EIS systems set the default shutter speed at 1/100 sec. instead of standard 1/60 (NTSC). That's why, whenever the light goes dim, you'll have heavy grain and noise in your stabilized picture coming from the electronic gain pushed beyond +9dB to +15 or +18dB to compensate for too fast a shutter. Nothing of the sort happens in bright daylight but, for indoors or evening shots, use a tripod and turn EIS OFF to take advantage of regular 1/60 shutter speed. Optical stabilizers found on more expensive camcorders do not interfere with shutter speeds. __________________ Norm :)

April 26th, 2004, 03:32 PM	#365
Michael Gibbons Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Loveland, Colorado, USA Posts: 292	John, Norm, thanks. Who could fix such a thing? I've kind of learned to compensate for it- by never using the EIS- but I would love to get it working right. Except I'm cheap and I don't want to spend big money on what is soon to be my second cam. Anyway, sorry if I seemed a bit snarky in my last post. I was recently promoted and the new postion is making me nuts. Michael __________________ " When some wild-eyed, eight foot tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head against a bar room wall, and looks you crooked in the eye, and he asks you if you've payed your dues, well, you just stare that big suker right back in the eye, and you remember what old Jack Burton always says at a time like that, 'Have you paid your dues, Jack? Yes sir, the check is in the mail."

April 27th, 2004, 08:18 AM	#366
Josh Shemroske Tourist Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: asheville nc Posts: 1	A camera for getting started I have been looking at cameras for almost a year now, planning my attack for purchasing a camera. I have started out buy accuiring a mac ready for video editing. Now I have been in the market for a camera, and was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers. I am looking to spend the least amount possible for a camera that will capture great visuals and quality sound. I have been pointed towards looking at a camera with a 3 ccd and I have heard that panasonics have a great lense. The camera will be used for some short lenth clips and possibly some large ones. I am also going to India and Sri Lanka to study villages and landscapes and record it all on film. so any advice for a novice would be great. I learn really fast so a reasonably complex camera would be perfect, but I probably dont want a professional style since I would most likely be overwhelmed both with its functions and its price. any second hand opputunites would be great to know about aswell.thanks a bunch Josh Shemroske

April 26th, 2004, 02:41 PM	#364
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	Michael -- sorry, I thought you were saying that you had already once cleaned the heads because of the EIS and thought you needed to do it again. My poor comprehension skills may also be at play here :) Certainly, this sounds like a problem unique to your camera that you should get checked out. The EIS on my DV53 does not cause degradation of the type you mentioned. Norm is correct that the EIS defaults to a faster shutter speed, but with the DV53, you can press the Manual button and drop back down to 1/60 while keeping the EIS on.

April 27th, 2004, 09:53 AM	#367
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	Michael, no problem. I've been rather curmudgeonly recently, myself. I think it's because of all the pollen we have here :) Unless your DV53 is under warranty, I don't know that I would bother with it. I bought my DV53 as a "fun" camera -- not necessarily disposable, per se, but one that I wouldn't mind giving a beating, so that my DVC80 wouldn't have to. While I don't think that $300 is chump change, it is a pretty inexpensive cam, relatively speaking. And if the cost of fixing the EIS is even $100 (factoring in shipping, etc), it seems like too much to spend on a $300 cam. If you're getting a 3 chipper soon, then I'd say save your money.

April 27th, 2004, 04:24 PM	#369
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=314961&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=276528&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=249633&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=252192&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=277532&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=316087&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=303956&is=REG __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

April 27th, 2004, 04:31 PM	#370
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	The PDX10 has very good sound with XLR inputs and stunning 16:9. Small form is good too. The DVC80 is the best deal going right now, with it's larger CCDs, it's manual controls, it's wide lens, it's XLRs, and, of course, it's price. These are my rec.s, without knowing your budget. __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

April 30th, 2004, 08:39 AM	#371
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	Suitable camera for school studio use? Hi all, I am helping a local residential school to upgrade and modernise its inhouse TV studio. They operate a 3 camera studio with full online editing capabilities - the purpose is to promote team working, not have individual children working on offline computers you see. Most children using this studio are 8-12 years old. They have a limited budget, so need the most cost effective way to improve the qulaity of their results and future proofing. First I am looking for advice on what to do about the cameras. Currently they have old, old, old, analogue cameras (not camcorders) feeding svideo to a live vision mixer. I suggest that they stay for now with the svideo signal path, and replace the cameras with modern digital camcorders with good low light level performance and the widest possible lens as standard (so they are good indoors/close up). What's a good camera for this brief? For starters, any price point is good. Any suggestions maybe for cost-effective cameras (not camcorders) if such exist. How robust are these cameras - this kit needs to last a long time. If it's a camcorder, does it work fine (svideo and audio output) with no tape? Balanced audio would be good, but I know it doesn't usually happen at cheaper pricepoints - but these cams will be permanently tripod-mounted and have separate audio path most of the time, so it's not a must-have. How about a fourth camera to be used off site? Again, robust is the keyword here. Easy to handle by children (so not too complex, but with manual override should Steven Spielberg's children drop in...) Secondly, they are currently mastering to SVHS which is a major quality bottleneck. Given they want to have loads of kids involved, they need to keep this online online setup, and I have suggested mastering to DV. They can do this without changing anything else out - cabling (svideo) or vision mixers. They can also bring in third party recoded DV material on tape. What's a good deck for this use? It would need 1394 i/o, svideo and composite i/o (must have), and XLR balanced audio. Supporting both small and large tapes with no "adapter". Robust (to last for years). They will need two of these, with an editing controller. I would love to hear suggestions - fire away! Regards, Julian

April 30th, 2004, 10:21 AM	#373
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	How about the Panasonic AG-DVC7 for right around $1000? It was designed for middle and high school. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=274107&is=REG

April 30th, 2004, 10:32 AM	#374
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aren't you going to edit with a non-linear editing program? iMovie I've found is really easy to use although it doesn't handle large projects well. It has changed since I've used it and don't know if it's gotten less buggier or more. ------------------------------------------------------------ No we are not. The important thing about this is that it is NOT a "learn how to make a video" class. It's a "learn how to work in a team" experience. The video creation is not the prime objective, but the coordination of different people doing different things is. Hence the online solution. Having said that, there is a technician who will try to offline edit anything that just looks crap after the online work... Quote ------------------------------------------------- 2- Maybe quality isn't as important as what the kids get out of it. If learning is the primary goal then I'd go for equipment that is easy to use and not too restrictive (you have a degree of creative freedom). However, a reasonable level of quality is good to have. The three biggest flaws in low budget productions are usually bad content (this is the most important) followed by shaky camerawork and poor sound. ------------------------------------------------- Fortunately shaky footage and bad quality sound aren't an issue here - they have solid tripods all round, and good quality microphones and interconnects. Content - well, yes, this is children's output... But the quality of the final result here is low because it is a second generation VHS dub - it is this last proble I want to solve. quote: ------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what the distinction between a camera and a camcorder is. -------------------------------------- A camcorder has a tape recording device built in. A camera doesn't - it outputs down a cable.. I agree with what you're saying about consumer camcorder manual control not being really useful/useable. That's why I am asking to see if there are any higher end consumer/lower end professional camcorders that may suit here. From my experinec consumer camcorders are just not robust - so probably not suitable for this environment - but I stand to be convinced. Julian

April 30th, 2004, 10:38 AM	#375
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	DVC7 Tommy, that looks interesting. Do you know if there is a PAL version available? Julian