The gigantic "which camera should I buy" thread!

Dylan Couper · January 18th, 2003, 12:40 AM

How about control accessibility and extra features?
Does it have something comparable to Frame Movie Mode?

Scott Silverman · January 18th, 2003, 02:40 AM

What about manual settings? Does it have any? That has been my major problem/concern with 1 chip cameras.

Bob Zimmerman · January 18th, 2003, 07:54 AM

Shop around and see what you can get. Besides my XL1s I have a Sony TRV340 digital camera. I think it's a good camera for the price. It's good for vacation, family stuff. It would probably be good for school too. Just look around, check them on line, compare prices and options. There are are plenty of websites that rates products.

Bryan Roberts · January 18th, 2003, 10:50 AM

So what I can gather is that this panasonic DV852 is my best bet for around the 1k range? The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right?

-ZimVG304 - I've been checking out a ton of sites with reviews and even picked up a copy of some mags with reviews of the camcorders and they all pointed to the Sony TRV27 to have the best picture quality etc. That's why I was kinda set on that cam, this is also why I was shocked to hear about this Panasonic model because I hadn't heard it mentioned in any of the reviews that I read which makes me weary. I would guess because it's list price of 1,500 k wouldn't place it in the same price bracket as the TRV27 for comparison in magazine tests. So does Panasonic make a pretty quality camera? I never connected their brand name with quality.

You guys almost have me sold on this panasonic camera as it seems a general consensus that it has great quality picture and onboard sound and will beat the hell out of the sony? Is there anyone who strongly disagrees with what has been said so far?

Jeff Donald · January 18th, 2003, 02:00 PM

Numbers, numbers, numbers, which ones do we choose to pick our cameras by. Lines of resolution are only one factor out of many. Almost universally 3 chip cameras will out perform a 1 chip camera. An easy test of the superiority of a 3 chip camera is contrast. If you shoot a very high contrast scene (dark bird on a wire against a light sky) and the 3 chip image is clearly superior. It will maintain more detail in the highlights and shadows.

The 3 chip GL1 is perhaps a better investment. It is near the price of the Panasonic and over time will hold it's value better. If the $1200 investment just isn't doable the Panasonic is a good second choice. However, a camera like the Canon Optura Pi ($500) may be a better investment also. The savings in cost will allow you to purchase the needed accessories, batteries, tripod, microphones, filters, lens adapters etc. Search Optura Pi here and you'll see it is thought by many to be the best single chip camera ever made (because of the use of a true progressive scan CCD). I used one for several years and the image quality rivaled the XL1 under certain, ideal lighting conditions.

Jeff

Dylan Couper · January 18th, 2003, 02:04 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts : The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right?
-->>>

Only the XL1 has changable lenses. The other miniDV cameras mentionned will have to use screw on converters.

I don't know if the Panasonic does indeed outperform the GL1. It surprises me, but is possible. I'm still waiting for someone to post a link with a head to head review.

Here are a few things to consider as a film maker:
First, the onboard mic will rarely be used. You will usualy (if you are smart) mount an external mic on a boom to get better sound.
Ease of use of your sound controls is nice too, especially if you have built in VU meters.

Second, manual controls and other features which allow you to get a more "hands on" approach to your shots, quickly and efficiently, are very valuable. Most important is a good manual focus system as well as easy access to white balance, shutter and iris controls.

These are things I would definitlly place in importance over a slight increase in picture quality. I've never handled the Panasonic in question, so I can't compare them to the GL1 for you. Make sure you do this before you make your final choice.

Don't forget to add accessories to your budget. A reasonably good tripod, extra batteries, bag, basic filters, and hopefully an external mic can easily add $300-$500 to your spending spree.

Bryan Roberts · January 18th, 2003, 02:51 PM

Dylan - what do you mean by basic filters? What are some that I simply must have as a basic set?

Thanks all, these all are tough things to consider. I think I might go with the GL1 if I could find it for sale new somewhere, but everywhere I check only offers the GL2 and I could never trust the EBAY way or even used in general. I guess I'll go with panasonic.......... any more feedback is appreciated, thanks all!

Ken Tanaka · January 18th, 2003, 03:40 PM

Bryan,
You'll be very hard-pressed to find a new GL1. Canon efficiently cleared their inventory pipes just before launching the GL2 by offering substantial incentives for GL1 buyers. Not saying you can't find one, but it may really not be worth the effort considering the marked enhancements offered by the GL2 at basically the same price point.

The two basic filters you should consider as starters are a high-quality UV filter and a good circular polarizing filter. Once you recover from the initial outlay you can begin exploring others, such as some of the soft-effect filters.

Eric Reynolds · January 18th, 2003, 05:09 PM

Here is a basic list of what I got for under $1350 at bhphoto.com

Panasonic DV852
5 hour battery
Tiffen Wide Angle Lens (43mm)
Tiffen set of 4 filters (43mm)
Shotgun Mic
Tapes

And then I bought an aluminum case with foam inside for $20 at lowes, here is my review of it:

"I just thought I would report on the case from lowes. It is fantastic! I am using it for my DV852 and there is more than enough room. The quality of this thing is MUCH better than expected. The foam inside is high quality and you can adjust it to fit your needs. I feel my camera is much better protected in this $20 case than it was in my $60 soft case.

This thing gets a 10 out of 10... I would have paid double after seeing it.

(it's not a $200 hard case... but for $20, hell, $50, you cant get any better!) "

Like I said before, I used a GL2 and my DV852 last week to shoot video and I honestly cannot tell much of a difference in the two once I am editing in Vegas...

Kenn Jolemore · January 19th, 2003, 05:30 AM

You had the right idea when you started with the thought of getting the TRV-27. Everyone will give you a different oppinion so you best check out a few you are interested in and decide on you own likes and dislikes .Take a tape with you a shoot a bit of footage with each and compair them in your editor.
KennJ

Frank Granovski · January 19th, 2003, 06:32 AM

The PV-DV852 has lots of manual controls. But it doesn't have frame mode. The horizontal resolution playback test was done by Stuart Cooper, Pana AU. There was another one done that I read but cannot recall the link. The GL1 res test, well, it was mentioned in DV Mag., CNET, Videomaker, and one other place which I cannot recall. (That's when Videomaker accually had writers that did these kinds of tests and included them in their reviews. Remember now, the GL1 goes a way back.)

Dylan,

Go have a look at the Panasonic PV-DV852 at Leo's Cameras (Granville Street, Downtown Vancouver). From the time this cam first cam out (as a MX1000/Japan and as a MX8/PAL Land), until a few months back, I snubbed my nose at it. Then reading all the hype over the last year, I actually went and looked at one, like several times. In my opinion, it's the jewel from the junk, among new 1 CCD cams. (But I still like the GL1, and the GL2 even better.)

(PS: I do like my MX300 best, however.)

Dylan Couper · January 19th, 2003, 02:12 PM

Frank, I'll check it out next time I'm there. You've got me curious about it now!

One thing Jeff brought up that shouldn't be overlooked, is that if you buy a used Optura Pi, or GL1, instead of a new camera, you will be able to re-sell them in a year or two for much closer to what you paid for them. Optura Pi's seem to be holding their value really well in the used market.

Bryan Roberts · January 20th, 2003, 05:48 PM

ok, so I'm pretty set on the dv852 but compare it to the panasonic AG-EZ50 which is only 200 bucks more on bhphoto.com. It's 3 CCD's, and I wasn't sure if this was a great deal that I should look into or should I just shutup and get the dv852? I mean, what is it about the DV852 that makes it so good? What specification is the tell tale sign that it's so good in the spec list? There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel.... I just am not catching on to how to tell them apart. Sorry for being a newb with so many continuous dumb questions, I just want my first "big" camcorder purchase to be the exact right one. Thanks so much to everyone!

Eric Reynolds · January 20th, 2003, 05:56 PM

I would stick with the DV852... first, the AG-EZ50 only has 1/6 ccds, so the low light footage will not be as good as the DV852... second, the AG-EZ50 has a smaller lens.

I was in the same postion not too long ago, and I decided that getting a high end 1ccd, is better than a low end 3ccd.

(i have heard that panasonic will be releasing the dv953 in april, but who knows...)

Dylan Couper · January 20th, 2003, 07:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts :

There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel....
-->>>

Dude!
You are getting hung up on numbers!!!
STOP IT!!!!!
You will never win the "numbers" game, because there will always be something better for less money.

Try and find some footage from the cameras you want and compare the "look" of the footage. I bought an XL1 over a PD150 or VX2000 because I liked the look of the picture, rather than by how many pixels it has (less than the Sonys).

January 18th, 2003, 02:40 AM	#152
Scott Silverman Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Cupertino, California, USA Posts: 301	What about manual settings? Does it have any? That has been my major problem/concern with 1 chip cameras. __________________ Scott Silverman Shining Star Digital Video Productions Bay Area, CA

January 18th, 2003, 03:40 PM	#158
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Bryan, You'll be very hard-pressed to find a new GL1. Canon efficiently cleared their inventory pipes just before launching the GL2 by offering substantial incentives for GL1 buyers. Not saying you can't find one, but it may really not be worth the effort considering the marked enhancements offered by the GL2 at basically the same price point. The two basic filters you should consider as starters are a high-quality UV filter and a good circular polarizing filter. Once you recover from the initial outlay you can begin exploring others, such as some of the soft-effect filters. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

January 19th, 2003, 05:30 AM	#160
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	You had the right idea when you started with the thought of getting the TRV-27. Everyone will give you a different oppinion so you best check out a few you are interested in and decide on you own likes and dislikes .Take a tape with you a shoot a bit of footage with each and compair them in your editor. KennJ __________________ KennJ

January 18th, 2003, 12:40 AM	#151
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	How about control accessibility and extra features? Does it have something comparable to Frame Movie Mode?

January 18th, 2003, 07:54 AM	#153
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Shop around and see what you can get. Besides my XL1s I have a Sony TRV340 digital camera. I think it's a good camera for the price. It's good for vacation, family stuff. It would probably be good for school too. Just look around, check them on line, compare prices and options. There are are plenty of websites that rates products.

January 18th, 2003, 10:50 AM	#154
Bryan Roberts Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 436	So what I can gather is that this panasonic DV852 is my best bet for around the 1k range? The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right? -ZimVG304 - I've been checking out a ton of sites with reviews and even picked up a copy of some mags with reviews of the camcorders and they all pointed to the Sony TRV27 to have the best picture quality etc. That's why I was kinda set on that cam, this is also why I was shocked to hear about this Panasonic model because I hadn't heard it mentioned in any of the reviews that I read which makes me weary. I would guess because it's list price of 1,500 k wouldn't place it in the same price bracket as the TRV27 for comparison in magazine tests. So does Panasonic make a pretty quality camera? I never connected their brand name with quality. You guys almost have me sold on this panasonic camera as it seems a general consensus that it has great quality picture and onboard sound and will beat the hell out of the sony? Is there anyone who strongly disagrees with what has been said so far?

January 18th, 2003, 02:00 PM	#155
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Numbers, numbers, numbers, which ones do we choose to pick our cameras by. Lines of resolution are only one factor out of many. Almost universally 3 chip cameras will out perform a 1 chip camera. An easy test of the superiority of a 3 chip camera is contrast. If you shoot a very high contrast scene (dark bird on a wire against a light sky) and the 3 chip image is clearly superior. It will maintain more detail in the highlights and shadows. The 3 chip GL1 is perhaps a better investment. It is near the price of the Panasonic and over time will hold it's value better. If the $1200 investment just isn't doable the Panasonic is a good second choice. However, a camera like the Canon Optura Pi ($500) may be a better investment also. The savings in cost will allow you to purchase the needed accessories, batteries, tripod, microphones, filters, lens adapters etc. Search Optura Pi here and you'll see it is thought by many to be the best single chip camera ever made (because of the use of a true progressive scan CCD). I used one for several years and the image quality rivaled the XL1 under certain, ideal lighting conditions. Jeff

January 18th, 2003, 02:04 PM	#156
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts : The GL1 looks cooler but costs 3 hundred bucks more but is outperformed by the panasonic in every catagory? Both of these cameras have changeable lenses or lense converters for wide angle lense or telephoto right? -->>> Only the XL1 has changable lenses. The other miniDV cameras mentionned will have to use screw on converters. I don't know if the Panasonic does indeed outperform the GL1. It surprises me, but is possible. I'm still waiting for someone to post a link with a head to head review. Here are a few things to consider as a film maker: First, the onboard mic will rarely be used. You will usualy (if you are smart) mount an external mic on a boom to get better sound. Ease of use of your sound controls is nice too, especially if you have built in VU meters. Second, manual controls and other features which allow you to get a more "hands on" approach to your shots, quickly and efficiently, are very valuable. Most important is a good manual focus system as well as easy access to white balance, shutter and iris controls. These are things I would definitlly place in importance over a slight increase in picture quality. I've never handled the Panasonic in question, so I can't compare them to the GL1 for you. Make sure you do this before you make your final choice. Don't forget to add accessories to your budget. A reasonably good tripod, extra batteries, bag, basic filters, and hopefully an external mic can easily add $300-$500 to your spending spree.

January 18th, 2003, 02:51 PM	#157
Bryan Roberts Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 436	Dylan - what do you mean by basic filters? What are some that I simply must have as a basic set? Thanks all, these all are tough things to consider. I think I might go with the GL1 if I could find it for sale new somewhere, but everywhere I check only offers the GL2 and I could never trust the EBAY way or even used in general. I guess I'll go with panasonic.......... any more feedback is appreciated, thanks all!

January 18th, 2003, 05:09 PM	#159
Eric Reynolds New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield MO Posts: 24	Here is a basic list of what I got for under $1350 at bhphoto.com Panasonic DV852 5 hour battery Tiffen Wide Angle Lens (43mm) Tiffen set of 4 filters (43mm) Shotgun Mic Tapes And then I bought an aluminum case with foam inside for $20 at lowes, here is my review of it: "I just thought I would report on the case from lowes. It is fantastic! I am using it for my DV852 and there is more than enough room. The quality of this thing is MUCH better than expected. The foam inside is high quality and you can adjust it to fit your needs. I feel my camera is much better protected in this $20 case than it was in my $60 soft case. This thing gets a 10 out of 10... I would have paid double after seeing it. (it's not a $200 hard case... but for $20, hell, $50, you cant get any better!) " Like I said before, I used a GL2 and my DV852 last week to shoot video and I honestly cannot tell much of a difference in the two once I am editing in Vegas...

January 19th, 2003, 06:32 AM	#161
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The PV-DV852 has lots of manual controls. But it doesn't have frame mode. The horizontal resolution playback test was done by Stuart Cooper, Pana AU. There was another one done that I read but cannot recall the link. The GL1 res test, well, it was mentioned in DV Mag., CNET, Videomaker, and one other place which I cannot recall. (That's when Videomaker accually had writers that did these kinds of tests and included them in their reviews. Remember now, the GL1 goes a way back.) Dylan, Go have a look at the Panasonic PV-DV852 at Leo's Cameras (Granville Street, Downtown Vancouver). From the time this cam first cam out (as a MX1000/Japan and as a MX8/PAL Land), until a few months back, I snubbed my nose at it. Then reading all the hype over the last year, I actually went and looked at one, like several times. In my opinion, it's the jewel from the junk, among new 1 CCD cams. (But I still like the GL1, and the GL2 even better.) (PS: I do like my MX300 best, however.)

January 19th, 2003, 02:12 PM	#162
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Frank, I'll check it out next time I'm there. You've got me curious about it now! One thing Jeff brought up that shouldn't be overlooked, is that if you buy a used Optura Pi, or GL1, instead of a new camera, you will be able to re-sell them in a year or two for much closer to what you paid for them. Optura Pi's seem to be holding their value really well in the used market.

January 20th, 2003, 05:48 PM	#163
Bryan Roberts Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 436	ok, so I'm pretty set on the dv852 but compare it to the panasonic AG-EZ50 which is only 200 bucks more on bhphoto.com. It's 3 CCD's, and I wasn't sure if this was a great deal that I should look into or should I just shutup and get the dv852? I mean, what is it about the DV852 that makes it so good? What specification is the tell tale sign that it's so good in the spec list? There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel.... I just am not catching on to how to tell them apart. Sorry for being a newb with so many continuous dumb questions, I just want my first "big" camcorder purchase to be the exact right one. Thanks so much to everyone!

January 20th, 2003, 05:56 PM	#164
Eric Reynolds New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield MO Posts: 24	I would stick with the DV852... first, the AG-EZ50 only has 1/6 ccds, so the low light footage will not be as good as the DV852... second, the AG-EZ50 has a smaller lens. I was in the same postion not too long ago, and I decided that getting a high end 1ccd, is better than a low end 3ccd. (i have heard that panasonic will be releasing the dv953 in april, but who knows...)

January 20th, 2003, 07:57 PM	#165
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Roberts : There is a new panasonics coming out that is 1.5 megapixels for $899 list and the dv852 is 1499 list for just 1 megapixel.... -->>> Dude! You are getting hung up on numbers!!! STOP IT!!!!! You will never win the "numbers" game, because there will always be something better for less money. Try and find some footage from the cameras you want and compare the "look" of the footage. I bought an XL1 over a PD150 or VX2000 because I liked the look of the picture, rather than by how many pixels it has (less than the Sonys).