Betacam SP VS. Betacam SX

[Margus Kivilaan]

<AND there NO such low hours machine...one sells the unit and can play with the hour reading. You can never be rst assured of its genuine reading.>

Yes, there is possibility to reset hours meters, but also possibility to find out if it is resetted or not. Firstly, it's possible to find out by serial no the age of camera, and look if meter readings are reasonable. Second, dsr-300 has at least one menu level, which can be accessed only by Sony tech stuff, there is held also information about counter resets.

Margus

[Rob Wilson]

I have to agreee with Margus, there are good deals out there that can be verified. I purchased a DSR500 on Ebay. I contacted the seller in advance and he agreed to a check up by a authorized Sony service center as a contingency to the sale.

The service center was able to verify the condition as described in Ebay, the actual hours (70 on the head) AND that it was not listed as stolen with Sony. I know that Sony and Fujinon both have lists of gear that has been reported as stolen so it's a good idea to check that too.

In this case, the service center acted as an unofficial escrow. The seller dropped it off, they verified condition and reported it to me, I paid the seller and the service center shipped the cam (+2 chargers and 6 AB Batts) to me.

If a seller refused to let you get it checked in advance, I'd take that as a warning sign and pass.

Of course, I had to pay for the service charges (had it cleaned since it was there) but it's well worth it to know what your're getting.

[Bill Pryor]

I would definitely not put any money into Betacam SP or SX. Both are obsolete, and you'd need a deck for either one (although the SX deck will play Betacam tapes too). The suggestions of the Panasonic 200 1/2" chip camera are good. You can probably get one with a useable lens and a couple of batteries for about that amount of money, maybe a little more. It's really not a good idea to buy into an obsolete format, especially Betacam SX because it wasn't out there all that long and I don't know of anyone who actually bought into it except for a few TV stations.

[Mike Rehmus]

Bankim,

When you thing about it, everyone is shooting with a used camera. Pro cameras are frequently 'pool' cameras and any one shooter will randomly draw cameras from the pool.

If that works OK, the carefully purchasing used cameras is OK too.

I wouldn't be shooting a DSR-300 if I hadn't bought everything used at one time or another. Lens, camera body and batteries and charger came from different sources. All work flawlessly

[Alessandro Machi]

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : ARe you aware that these formats are now considered obsolete? Lots of them out there, but new cameras designs in these formats are no longer produced. -->>>

BetaCam SP is not necessarily an obsolete format, it's an "older" format. I just bought a 10 year old KY-27B head that directly docks to betacam sp. I already owned a BetaCam SP back so for me it was a great addition.

I bought the JVC camera head for $600.00 and it works quite well. I did a side by side with a Panasonic DVX-100 and it appears they are about equal. However I think the DV format has a touch more color ringing than BetaCam SP when filming thin strands of hair or diagnonal lines. I was watching a KCET interview the other night and I saw color ringing coming from the strands of hair and the fringe style of clothing.

The betacam cameras tend to be 2/3 inch chip design so you tend to get that less depth of field look. No matter what your favorite camera or video format is, it sometimes makes sense to see why others continue to like formats that many newer production people tend to think are obsolete.

The fact that the betacam sp record backs are no longer made is definitely a reason to not invest in the format for field acquisition. I have owned my BetaCam SP back for approximately 7 years and I have never bought it in for servicing because it has been so reliable. Frankly I'm afraid to have someone touch it.

One final note, BetaCam SP studio decks are still being made, and BetaCam SP continues to be the most economical and sturdy archival format for video tape edit masters, and probably is more reliable in the field than the very thin tape used for DV, however you are limited to bigger tapes that only last 30 minutes, a pretty big disadvantage.

[Mike Rehmus]

You cite the best reason for using 'older' formats. The cost to participate if you own part of the kit can be quite low. The 27 head is a good performer if not quite up to the best of the new cameras. The price you paid makes it a no-brainer.

If I owned a BetaSP setup, I'd use it although I'd cry about the cost of tape.

It hasn't been so long ago that I sold my trusty EVW-300 (Hi-8)camera body and bought a used DSR-300 body for $3500.

Comcast is still BetaSP-centric. I deliver DVCam masters to them for commercials and they immediately transfer that to BetaSP.

[Alessandro Machi]

<<<--

If I owned a BetaSP setup, I'd use it although I'd cry about the cost of tape. -->>>

For me it's more the length of the tape (30 min loads for field work), and the size of the tape,
the 90 minute tapes are huge that is a disadvantage over the long haul. (Storage becomes an issue).

My PVV-3 Betacam Back, which is no longer made, cost over $9,000. The potential replacement DSR back which I believe would dock to my KY-27B camera that sony makes lists for over $8,000.00!

[Mike Rehmus]

I hear you. I really like the 3 hour tape-loads along with batteries that will power the camera for longer than that. Used DVCam backs with plenty of hours left on them are around $4K the last I looked.

[Alessandro Machi]

I forget to mention that the betacam sp tapes actually are quite affordable these days. The 30 minutes tapes sell for around 8-9 dollars each. 90 minutes tapes sell for around 23-25 dollars each.

As for 3 hour loads, I've discovered that using my S-VHS backs with the very high quality playback of the JVC-BRS series of editing decks gives me incredible flexibility.

Now we're talking $10.00 for the 2 hour and 43 minute length tapes and I then edit directly to BetaCam SP. I get XLR in and double redundant audio tracks. One set is analog with dolby C noise reduction, the other set is HI-FI. Gosh Opera sounds great when it's recorded with HI-FI audio.

I've got settable digital picture noise reduction for low light live event shoots that probably give me more "correction" capability than I would get shooting with most mini-dv cameras. I run mu signal through the Panasonic MX-50 and I have my 7.5 minimum IRE set, then I have my Clip set at around 100 IRE. Then I play magician with my TBC remote and I get INSTANT adustment capability for color, hue, set-up and black. No way an all automatic adjustment can do it as well.

As for situations with more lighting, where digital should really excell, I'm no longer surprised at jobs I look at that have blown out the detail in peoples faces that were shot with digital video. As much as I like a color viewfinder, I get better results with my black and white viewfinder and zebras.

I get really good looking BetaCam SP Edit Masters from S-VHS source tapes and my VHS copies look real good.

[Alessandro Machi]

<<<-- Originally posted by Martin Garrison : The SX cameras are much newer, the only one I've used was a top notch cam. I think the SX is a 4:2:2 mpeg format. I assume it's 50mbit, but I'm not sure.

Like I said the cam I used was hands down better than the bvw300 very little noise, incredible low light... on and on.
-->>>

Isn't the Sony 300 like 12-15 years old? BetaCam SP is a docking format, so theoretically you can put a newer camera head on it and then be presently surprised. The risk comes in whether or not the BetaCam SP record back (PVV-3) is in good condition. They are down to the $2,500 to $3,000 price range now.

[Alessandro Machi]

<<<-- Originally posted by Margus Kivilaan : assuming that you have some "heavier" AVID
sx vs sp: sx has far better audio.

Margus -->>>

I think this statement needs some clarification. I'm assuming that SX is a digital format, so it probably is easier to transfer into a non-linear enviroment.

BetaCam SP sound is excellent. Incredible dynamic range. I once was given a dat recording that had such huge dynamic range that no matter how I set my analog record decks I was getting distortion. (perhaps I had a bad audio board in one deck, but I think I tried it in two different decks and no luck) The betacam sp deck handled the dynamic range of the dat recording perfectly.

[Bill Pryor]

Alessandro, you are correct in that the BVW300 is about 15 years old. I bought mine in 1989 and retired it for a DSR500 in 2000. It was an excellent camera in its day, but required much more light than later models, such as the BVW400. By today's standards it also has a fairly low resolution (only about 50 more lines that a PD150), but it has excellent latitude. You won't find many of them around anymore, but there are still quite a few 400's and 600's in use, and quite a few of the dockable versions. The 300 is a camcorder, not dockable, so you're stuck with Betacam tapes.

[Margus Kivilaan]

Alessandro,
sx uses digital audio 16bit/sample 48kHZ, that gives 20-20 000Hz frequency area and about 80dB dynamics.
sp uses analogue tracks 20-15 000 HZ in longitudinal, about 70dB dynamics.
But more important is multigeneration capability. When you rerecord digital audio, it's virtually lossless, analogue audio gets worse with every generation. And in practical side, sp audio quality depends very much on accuracy of vtr and camera mechanics, as they use separate audio head.
Of course "heavier" sp vtr-s have AFM audio tracks with better characteristics, but you can't find much camcorders with AFM tracks, and you cannot edit in linear with AFM audio.

Margus

[Alessandro Machi]

Here's what I've noticed in regards to different audio systems. My S-VHS professional decks offer linear stereo audio with Dolby C and are rated in the mid to high 40's for dynamic range. These S-VHS decks also offer stereo HI-FI audio that is in the low 90's.

BetaCam SP offers linear audio with Dolby Noise Reduction in the low to mid 70's.

I'm not convinced that the HI-FI stereo actually is better than my BetaCam SP with dolby C noise reduction even though HI-FI is 15 to 20 points higher. I have gotten wonderful results from VHS linear stereo (the mid to high 40's), so gaining almost 30 more points with BetaCam SP is huge.

If the analog audio is converted to digital from the get go the potential loss by staying analog is avoided.

[Bankim Jain]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOPsss !!! In this long discussion I have forgotten the original issue...Ws it the purchase of a new or old camera ! Well i never desie to ofend any one using a Pre-Owned gear. My suggestion to any one considering buying a gear is to..

1. Consider the final output format
2. Budget for purchase
3. Clientele profile
4. Compatibility of the new gear underconsideration with any owned previously with the buyer
5. Compare features of various gear in the market with new ones

I hve a strong feeling after using DVC200 against DSR500 the output of 200 was surpassing that of 500. Before making my purchase i had hired these unit and tried for myself for two full das prallely and than took my desision. Its simply Sony the name which make one gear costlier than Panny. As it is Pannuy DVCPRO format is more widely acptible in TV stations than t DVcam. The DVC200 is based on the DVCPRO 410 Hardware except for the diff i the recording format.


Rest depends on the persons individual concern and choice...

Signing off...!

Any ways do mail me about your purchase it sall mke us feel tat we spent our time for worth.

Cheers !