Live 3 camera shoots at DVinfo.net

Tony Brave · March 8th, 2004, 02:42 PM

Our college would like to begin doing live 3 camera shoots. I have never done this before. We will be using: one Canon XL-1s, one Panasonic DVX100 and one DVX100a. I know we will need a switcher. My question is what kind are out there now? wired, wireless etc... What are the cabling issues? Is there other resources on the net I can go to? I will also post this at 2-pop.

I want to know what issures must be addressed? Most of this will be sports coverage.

thanks

Glenn Chan · March 8th, 2004, 05:10 PM

http://www.dv.com/jive3/thread.jspa?...03709&tstart=0

One of your options is getting an old analog mixer (off eBay), which would be the cheapest. Be careful about eBay because you can get scammed (read the not getting scammed on eBay thread) and because the mixer might be slightly damaged (buttons that don't quite work). Videonics makes mixers that have issues (lag, turns off when hot?, uses a wall wart power supply, etc.) and Panasonic makes decent mixers. New model mixers cost a lot more than the old ones.

Paul Brand · March 16th, 2004, 09:39 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Chan : http://www.dv.com/jive3/thread.jspa?...03709&tstart=0

One of your options is getting an old analog mixer (off eBay), which would be the cheapest. Be careful about eBay because you can get scammed (read the not getting scammed on eBay thread) and because the mixer might be slightly damaged (buttons that don't quite work). Videonics makes mixers that have issues (lag, turns off when hot?, uses a wall wart power supply, etc.) and Panasonic makes decent mixers. New model mixers cost a lot more than the old ones. -->>>

I use a Bob Rall modified Panasonic WJ-MX50 (500 horizontal lines res. Proc amps for both A&B buses - which helps for matching your cams) It has analog in/out but works well. I'm thinking about a firewire in/out switcher (http://www.datavideo-tek.com/navigation_frames/se_800/entire.htm) which looks interesting. Don't know what your budget is, but a used Panasonic mx50 should go for around $2k or less. The Bob Rall mods (don't know his website right off hand, but he's down in San Diego) will run you another $1200 or so, but he tunes your switcher up & makes sure everythings working right.

The MX50 has svideo & bnc inputs for 4 video channels & if you set up some monitors for each of your cams and a preview out for what you feed the VTR you should be able to do 3 cam live-to-tape easily. Get your intercoms set up and shoot away!

paul

Mike Rehmus · March 16th, 2004, 11:29 PM

I've built a few studios.

Unless you really want to teach TV Production in the classic manner, don't get wrapped up in all the traditional equipment. It costs a bundle and is difficult to keep in operation. Especially if you don't have someone with the training to make it all work.

Way way more than just buying the equipment and plugging it in. Even if you bought used equipment . . . Switcher, audio panel, TBC/Proc-Amps, house synch, etc., the racks to put it in and the power management system to feed it, you are probably looking at $100,000 unless you know how to do it yourself. And of course you need a fair sized Control Room.

If I were setting up a nice and compact Control room, I'd look very hard at the Video Toaster with the add-on, SX-8 input module. That will take care of syncing the video sources and handling and switching video and sound.

If you want a traditional control surface instead of a mouse and keyboard-directed system, you can get the RX-8 control module.

The only unfortunate item is the (apparent) requirement to use existing cameras instead of studio cameras with their CCUs. But while they will work, the camera operators will have much more to do.

The lack of a LCD panel on the XL1 will bug your camera operator because they cannot move the camera on a tripod and monitor their image at the same time. I'd use that as camera #3 which traditionally is the wide-angle safety shot camera anyway. You could add a LCD panel but that may be probematical since you need to ship the composite video signal to the switcher.

Your talent won't be able to see which camera is live because you won't have tally lights that switch.

You will also require a communications system to talk to your Camera Operators and Floor Director. Wired or wireless depending on where your productions will occur.

Alessandro Machi · March 17th, 2004, 03:00 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tony Brave : Our college would like to begin doing live 3 camera shoots.

thanks -->>>

I don't think this is clear. Just because you are shooting an event live does that mean you MUST edit it live, or can it be edited later?

Kris Kaufmann · April 15th, 2004, 08:04 AM

For high school football and basketball games we use 3 Panasonic AG 456 svhs camcorders (which I load with tapes) as cameras connected to a Videonics switcher with a Videonics cg going into an svhs vcr. I run about 100 ft. of RG59 coax with rf/rca adapters on them to connect my far cameras to the switcher using the composite ins/outs. The picture looks fine. It seems silly to record composite signals in S mode on the vcr but it looks better than regular vhs.

We use Radio Shack FRS walkie talkies with headsets to communicate.

If we miss a shot in the live switching, we fix it in post by using footage from the camcorder's tape as an insert edit.

Hope this helps.

Kris Kaufmann
kaufmannk@nhsd.k12.pa.us

Mike Cavanaugh · April 15th, 2004, 01:53 PM

You may have a higher budget than me, but this works OK for my purposes.

For live taping of school events, I use a similar setup as Kris, except I run s-video cable from the cameras to the mixer. Downside- S-VHS cables are expensive and somewhat fragile.

The Videonics MX-1 has some issues, as mentioned earlier. The biggest one is the lag time while it internally sync's the signals. You can learn to anticipate the switch by about 1/2 second, but it's not always easy! On a positive note, I bought my MX-1 for about $150!

I don't have a graphics generator in this set-up, but... The MX-1 has 4 inputs (s-video or composite) I run 3 cameras and hook the 4th input up to a VCR. I pre-produce graphics on tape and feed them into the mixer. At the end of the shoot, if all goes well, I have a finished product, complete with titles, graphics and credits!

I record from the mixer to a mini DV Master to make editing easier if I need to. The S-VHS has better resolution than the composite signal.

Running tape in each of the cameras (called ISO) is a great way to have a backup incase a cable gets un-plugged, or you switch to the wrong camera.

For communication, I use 49mHz radios instead of FRS.

Hope this helps present the "low end" of the price range. The big buck guys have already told you the right way to do it!

March 8th, 2004, 02:42 PM	#1
Tony Brave New Boot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kyle, SD USA Posts: 17	Live 3 camera shoots Our college would like to begin doing live 3 camera shoots. I have never done this before. We will be using: one Canon XL-1s, one Panasonic DVX100 and one DVX100a. I know we will need a switcher. My question is what kind are out there now? wired, wireless etc... What are the cabling issues? Is there other resources on the net I can go to? I will also post this at 2-pop. I want to know what issures must be addressed? Most of this will be sports coverage. thanks

March 16th, 2004, 11:29 PM	#4
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	I've built a few studios. Unless you really want to teach TV Production in the classic manner, don't get wrapped up in all the traditional equipment. It costs a bundle and is difficult to keep in operation. Especially if you don't have someone with the training to make it all work. Way way more than just buying the equipment and plugging it in. Even if you bought used equipment . . . Switcher, audio panel, TBC/Proc-Amps, house synch, etc., the racks to put it in and the power management system to feed it, you are probably looking at $100,000 unless you know how to do it yourself. And of course you need a fair sized Control Room. If I were setting up a nice and compact Control room, I'd look very hard at the Video Toaster with the add-on, SX-8 input module. That will take care of syncing the video sources and handling and switching video and sound. If you want a traditional control surface instead of a mouse and keyboard-directed system, you can get the RX-8 control module. The only unfortunate item is the (apparent) requirement to use existing cameras instead of studio cameras with their CCUs. But while they will work, the camera operators will have much more to do. The lack of a LCD panel on the XL1 will bug your camera operator because they cannot move the camera on a tripod and monitor their image at the same time. I'd use that as camera #3 which traditionally is the wide-angle safety shot camera anyway. You could add a LCD panel but that may be probematical since you need to ship the composite video signal to the switcher. Your talent won't be able to see which camera is live because you won't have tally lights that switch. You will also require a communications system to talk to your Camera Operators and Floor Director. Wired or wireless depending on where your productions will occur. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

March 17th, 2004, 03:00 AM	#5
Alessandro Machi Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, Ca USA Posts: 553	Re: Live 3 camera shoots <<<-- Originally posted by Tony Brave : Our college would like to begin doing live 3 camera shoots. thanks -->>> I don't think this is clear. Just because you are shooting an event live does that mean you MUST edit it live, or can it be edited later? __________________ https://alexlogic.blogspot.com/ Los Angeles Emmy Winner (yes, used a video edit controller and loved doing so.)

April 15th, 2004, 08:04 AM	#6
Kris Kaufmann New Boot Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 8	3 camera shoots on a looow budget For high school football and basketball games we use 3 Panasonic AG 456 svhs camcorders (which I load with tapes) as cameras connected to a Videonics switcher with a Videonics cg going into an svhs vcr. I run about 100 ft. of RG59 coax with rf/rca adapters on them to connect my far cameras to the switcher using the composite ins/outs. The picture looks fine. It seems silly to record composite signals in S mode on the vcr but it looks better than regular vhs. We use Radio Shack FRS walkie talkies with headsets to communicate. If we miss a shot in the live switching, we fix it in post by using footage from the camcorder's tape as an insert edit. Hope this helps. Kris Kaufmann kaufmannk@nhsd.k12.pa.us __________________ A/V Technology Specialist North Hills School District kaufmannk@nhsd.k12.pa.us

March 8th, 2004, 05:10 PM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	http://www.dv.com/jive3/thread.jspa?...03709&tstart=0 One of your options is getting an old analog mixer (off eBay), which would be the cheapest. Be careful about eBay because you can get scammed (read the not getting scammed on eBay thread) and because the mixer might be slightly damaged (buttons that don't quite work). Videonics makes mixers that have issues (lag, turns off when hot?, uses a wall wart power supply, etc.) and Panasonic makes decent mixers. New model mixers cost a lot more than the old ones.

March 16th, 2004, 09:39 PM	#3
Paul Brand New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Coeur d'Alene ID United States Posts: 7	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Chan : http://www.dv.com/jive3/thread.jspa?...03709&tstart=0 One of your options is getting an old analog mixer (off eBay), which would be the cheapest. Be careful about eBay because you can get scammed (read the not getting scammed on eBay thread) and because the mixer might be slightly damaged (buttons that don't quite work). Videonics makes mixers that have issues (lag, turns off when hot?, uses a wall wart power supply, etc.) and Panasonic makes decent mixers. New model mixers cost a lot more than the old ones. -->>> I use a Bob Rall modified Panasonic WJ-MX50 (500 horizontal lines res. Proc amps for both A&B buses - which helps for matching your cams) It has analog in/out but works well. I'm thinking about a firewire in/out switcher (http://www.datavideo-tek.com/navigation_frames/se_800/entire.htm) which looks interesting. Don't know what your budget is, but a used Panasonic mx50 should go for around $2k or less. The Bob Rall mods (don't know his website right off hand, but he's down in San Diego) will run you another $1200 or so, but he tunes your switcher up & makes sure everythings working right. The MX50 has svideo & bnc inputs for 4 video channels & if you set up some monitors for each of your cams and a preview out for what you feed the VTR you should be able to do 3 cam live-to-tape easily. Get your intercoms set up and shoot away! paul

April 15th, 2004, 01:53 PM	#7
Mike Cavanaugh Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Albany NY Posts: 311	You may have a higher budget than me, but this works OK for my purposes. For live taping of school events, I use a similar setup as Kris, except I run s-video cable from the cameras to the mixer. Downside- S-VHS cables are expensive and somewhat fragile. The Videonics MX-1 has some issues, as mentioned earlier. The biggest one is the lag time while it internally sync's the signals. You can learn to anticipate the switch by about 1/2 second, but it's not always easy! On a positive note, I bought my MX-1 for about $150! I don't have a graphics generator in this set-up, but... The MX-1 has 4 inputs (s-video or composite) I run 3 cameras and hook the 4th input up to a VCR. I pre-produce graphics on tape and feed them into the mixer. At the end of the shoot, if all goes well, I have a finished product, complete with titles, graphics and credits! I record from the mixer to a mini DV Master to make editing easier if I need to. The S-VHS has better resolution than the composite signal. Running tape in each of the cameras (called ISO) is a great way to have a backup incase a cable gets un-plugged, or you switch to the wrong camera. For communication, I use 49mHz radios instead of FRS. Hope this helps present the "low end" of the price range. The big buck guys have already told you the right way to do it!