upsampling / supersampling

Gints Klimanis · August 12th, 2003, 01:25 PM

Frank,

Regarding bit depth, your image will probably have less noise if converted to a greater # of bits provided that the bits are allocated properly. Most bit depth increases are added to the bottom end, something I call "foot room." If the bits are added to allow for larger values, "head room" has been increased. Bit increases generally allow for greater signal resolution, but the conversion back to the shorter word width can be tricky when you have an image the exceeds the dynamic range of the shorter word. It's relatively straightforward to scan the image for peaks and chop off anything below that. However, it can also be useful to compress the peaks (hot spots) using a non-linear algorithm.

Jeff Donald · August 12th, 2003, 01:35 PM

The problem is not really the conversion, but rather availability of 16 bit (48 bit) software. Photoshop has limited tools in 16 bit (no layers for example). However PS 8 is rumored to have more 16 bit functionality (due to be released this fall). There is program called Film Gimp (it's free) and has a wide variety of 16 bit tools. Film Gimp is used to manipulate files for film and video in 16 bit mode. Some video boards also offer proprietary 16 bit paint/color correction programs. The boards, however, are usually thousands of dollars.

Gints Klimanis · August 12th, 2003, 01:50 PM

Jeff, thanks for the tip.

FilmGimp seems to have been renamed CinePaint.
http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/

Actually, I'm looking for an image processing program that can
handle motion JPEG (MJPEG) avi files from my Canon S40 camera. Studio8 can
handle the files, but the software offers minimal processing.
PhotoShop doesn't do it. Would anyone know of a good program that can handle MJPEG?

Thanks !

Gints

Frank Ladner · August 12th, 2003, 02:36 PM

Once again, thanks for the extensive information, guys!

Before moving to DV, I was using an Iomega Buz capture device, which captured to an MJPEG compressed AVI. This came bundled with MGI Videowave, which I'd use for capturing only.

You should have no problems opening the MJPEG AVI into Adobe Premiere or After Effects.

Robert Knecht Schmidt · August 12th, 2003, 04:31 PM

I see that CinePaint claims to operate in "high dynamic range"--this is a bit misleading since it is actually only capable of 32 bit depth image manipulation, whereas what is normally referred to as HDR is typically a 96 bits/pixel floating point format (though there are actually several formats for describing HDR images--see, for example, Larson's descriptions of several such formats).

Rob Lohman · August 14th, 2003, 06:34 AM

Gints,

As long as you have an MJPEG codec on your system any NLE
(editor) should be able to handle your footage. From there you
can export individual frames so that Photoshop can input them.

Gints Klimanis · August 14th, 2003, 03:07 PM

Thanks, Rob. Actually, I'm lazy. I would like to use the Photoshop auto color balance and levels functions and some other photoshop processing like layer, apply them to an entire MJPEG file and output to MPEG1. Studio8 doesn have enough image processing options. Vegas only shows me the audio.

Hmmm. I checked the web for MJPEG codecs, but most, can you believe the gall of these software developers, require a monetary exchange. Chuckle. If any of you know of some MJPEG codec freeware, please post ! I'd pay $20 for a great codec, but I'd like to verify that it does the job in Photoshop and Vegas.

Rob Lohman · August 15th, 2003, 09:08 AM

Photoshop ISN'T a VIDEO editor. It cannot and will not read movies
(which MJPEG is). The ONLY thing you can do is:

1) load your MJPEG footage into an NLE and export individial frames and load these all up in Photoshop one by one

2) some NLE's might load a Photoshop filter that can be used on your footage

I don't think there is any freeware MJPEG codec. I'm surprised
your camera isn't coming with one since it makes such movies.
If you can play the movie in Windows Media Player you already
HAVE an MJPEG codec. So you don't need another.

Again, even with an MJPEG codec Photoshop WILL NOT load your
movie. If you want to see for yourself make sure you have an
MJPEG codec (movie plays in WMP) and try to load it in Photoshop.

Gints Klimanis · August 16th, 2003, 01:55 PM

Thanks Rob. My brother suggested Adobe ImageReady for splitting and combining images from movies.
Each movie frame becomes a layer in an Photoshop file. He didn't know how to select all 450 layers at once for a painless application of all of the desired image processing, so appying the same setting to each frame is tedious using this method. I'll keep on looking. I don't have Premiere ... yet.

Glenn Chan · August 16th, 2003, 06:17 PM

Quicktime Pro can convert from most video formats to an image sequence (lots of image files with a sequential naming system). You can use Photoshop's batch actions to process that image sequence, then use QT Pro to convert the image sequence to a video format (uncompressed AVI for example).

You could uprez your DV movie to HD by using genuine fractals in photoshop for example.

Increased bit depth (i.e. rendering in 32-bit floating point, which Vegas Video [i think] and FCP and higher end solutions do) can reduce quantization error on renders involving stacks of filters. If your capture and output format is mini-DV (8-bit), you can still benefit from rendering with increased bit depth. This should reduce banding that happens with certain color correctors (the not so good ones). I'm not too clear about this though as 32-bit floating point seems to be overkill when most capture formats do not come close (12bit for some film transfers is the highest I've seen; dv is 8 bit and uncompressed/standard definition video is 10 bit).

August 12th, 2003, 01:35 PM	#17
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The problem is not really the conversion, but rather availability of 16 bit (48 bit) software. Photoshop has limited tools in 16 bit (no layers for example). However PS 8 is rumored to have more 16 bit functionality (due to be released this fall). There is program called Film Gimp (it's free) and has a wide variety of 16 bit tools. Film Gimp is used to manipulate files for film and video in 16 bit mode. Some video boards also offer proprietary 16 bit paint/color correction programs. The boards, however, are usually thousands of dollars. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 12th, 2003, 04:31 PM	#20
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	I see that CinePaint claims to operate in "high dynamic range"--this is a bit misleading since it is actually only capable of 32 bit depth image manipulation, whereas what is normally referred to as HDR is typically a 96 bits/pixel floating point format (though there are actually several formats for describing HDR images--see, for example, Larson's descriptions of several such formats). __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 14th, 2003, 06:34 AM	#21
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Gints, As long as you have an MJPEG codec on your system any NLE (editor) should be able to handle your footage. From there you can export individual frames so that Photoshop can input them. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 15th, 2003, 09:08 AM	#23
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Photoshop ISN'T a VIDEO editor. It cannot and will not read movies (which MJPEG is). The ONLY thing you can do is: 1) load your MJPEG footage into an NLE and export individial frames and load these all up in Photoshop one by one 2) some NLE's might load a Photoshop filter that can be used on your footage I don't think there is any freeware MJPEG codec. I'm surprised your camera isn't coming with one since it makes such movies. If you can play the movie in Windows Media Player you already HAVE an MJPEG codec. So you don't need another. Again, even with an MJPEG codec Photoshop WILL NOT load your movie. If you want to see for yourself make sure you have an MJPEG codec (movie plays in WMP) and try to load it in Photoshop. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 12th, 2003, 01:25 PM	#16
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Frank, Regarding bit depth, your image will probably have less noise if converted to a greater # of bits provided that the bits are allocated properly. Most bit depth increases are added to the bottom end, something I call "foot room." If the bits are added to allow for larger values, "head room" has been increased. Bit increases generally allow for greater signal resolution, but the conversion back to the shorter word width can be tricky when you have an image the exceeds the dynamic range of the shorter word. It's relatively straightforward to scan the image for peaks and chop off anything below that. However, it can also be useful to compress the peaks (hot spots) using a non-linear algorithm.

August 12th, 2003, 01:50 PM	#18
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Jeff, thanks for the tip. FilmGimp seems to have been renamed CinePaint. http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ Actually, I'm looking for an image processing program that can handle motion JPEG (MJPEG) avi files from my Canon S40 camera. Studio8 can handle the files, but the software offers minimal processing. PhotoShop doesn't do it. Would anyone know of a good program that can handle MJPEG? Thanks ! Gints

August 12th, 2003, 02:36 PM	#19
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Once again, thanks for the extensive information, guys! Before moving to DV, I was using an Iomega Buz capture device, which captured to an MJPEG compressed AVI. This came bundled with MGI Videowave, which I'd use for capturing only. You should have no problems opening the MJPEG AVI into Adobe Premiere or After Effects.

August 14th, 2003, 03:07 PM	#22
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Thanks, Rob. Actually, I'm lazy. I would like to use the Photoshop auto color balance and levels functions and some other photoshop processing like layer, apply them to an entire MJPEG file and output to MPEG1. Studio8 doesn have enough image processing options. Vegas only shows me the audio. Hmmm. I checked the web for MJPEG codecs, but most, can you believe the gall of these software developers, require a monetary exchange. Chuckle. If any of you know of some MJPEG codec freeware, please post ! I'd pay $20 for a great codec, but I'd like to verify that it does the job in Photoshop and Vegas.

August 16th, 2003, 01:55 PM	#24
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Thanks Rob. My brother suggested Adobe ImageReady for splitting and combining images from movies. Each movie frame becomes a layer in an Photoshop file. He didn't know how to select all 450 layers at once for a painless application of all of the desired image processing, so appying the same setting to each frame is tedious using this method. I'll keep on looking. I don't have Premiere ... yet.

August 16th, 2003, 06:17 PM	#25
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Quicktime Pro can convert from most video formats to an image sequence (lots of image files with a sequential naming system). You can use Photoshop's batch actions to process that image sequence, then use QT Pro to convert the image sequence to a video format (uncompressed AVI for example). You could uprez your DV movie to HD by using genuine fractals in photoshop for example. Increased bit depth (i.e. rendering in 32-bit floating point, which Vegas Video [i think] and FCP and higher end solutions do) can reduce quantization error on renders involving stacks of filters. If your capture and output format is mini-DV (8-bit), you can still benefit from rendering with increased bit depth. This should reduce banding that happens with certain color correctors (the not so good ones). I'm not too clear about this though as 32-bit floating point seems to be overkill when most capture formats do not come close (12bit for some film transfers is the highest I've seen; dv is 8 bit and uncompressed/standard definition video is 10 bit).