4GB RAM in XPP? at DVinfo.net

Jon Springer · July 25th, 2007, 02:10 PM

Does anyone know the setting that allows the system recognize 4GB of RAM? Thanks.

Stephen Armour · July 31st, 2007, 08:59 PM

better look at this first:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=98374

John Miller · August 1st, 2007, 08:17 AM

In short, for 32-bit versions of XP (and Vista):

Max RAM for everything = 4GB
Max RAM for programs etc = 2GB
Max RAM for system stuff (drivers etc) = 2GB

The largest amount of RAM usable by one program = 2GB*

*Unless the program has been written to be "3GB" aware. In such case, you can use the boot option to specify that up to 3GB can be used by programs instead of 2GB. This only works for programs written to take advantage of it. Other programs will still only get 2GB.

But, as Stephen warns in the other thread, don't enable this option lightly.

Programs not written for the 3GB option can crash the system when it is enabled. It isn't a fault of the program but a side effect of changing the address ranges for programs ("user mode") and system components ("kernel mode").

If you know that all your major applications support the 3GB, it will generally be okay. Mixing and matching aware and non-aware apps will almost certainly bring grief (at some unexpected point!)

Stephen Armour · August 1st, 2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F Miller

In short, for 32-bit versions of XP (and Vista):

Max RAM for everything = 4GB
Max RAM for programs etc = 2GB
Max RAM for system stuff (drivers etc) = 2GB

The largest amount of RAM usable by one program = 2GB*

*Unless the program has been written to be "3GB" aware. In such case, you can use the boot option to specify that up to 3GB can be used by programs instead of 2GB. This only works for programs written to take advantage of it. Other programs will still only get 2GB.

But, as Stephen warns in the other thread, don't enable this option lightly.

Programs not written for the 3GB option can crash the system when it is enabled. It isn't a fault of the program but a side effect of changing the address ranges for programs ("user mode") and system components ("kernel mode").

If you know that all your major applications support the 3GB, it will generally be okay. Mixing and matching aware and non-aware apps will almost certainly bring grief (at some unexpected point!)

Just to update a little. It seems that even the 2GB for XP programs is not really true. As you can see from other threads in this forum, we've come against some major issues with Premiere CS3, where it apparently hogs all the memory for itself, not leaving sufficient to run CF's decoder correctly. CF has said 1.5GB is the limit, (we're seeing s little more before crashes), so it probably depends on system config's. CF is madly trying to make a workaround for PP that will at least enable their codec to run correctly under heavy processing conditions (big 1920x1080 files, alpha layers, etc.).

Until we have a 64 bit versions of Adobe programs, this will continue to be a real hassle. As we move into the era of 64 bit processors and OS's, I'm sure the pressure to "64bit" their progs will soon result in another major upgrade...more $$, more hassle, more power for sure.

I for one, would jump ship in a flash to existing 64 bit solutions (Linux) if they had the power tools we lust after. But alas, we are in the WinTel ship until it sinks from it's own bloated code...

John Miller · August 1st, 2007, 10:21 AM

There's a bit of a misconception about the 2GB for programs thing.

32-bit Windows can address memory up to a maximum of 2^32 bits = 4GB.
Half that is dedicated to system stuff (unless you use the /3GB switch then it drops to 1GB).

A single program can use up to 2GB though it will be slight less in reality due to other programs running. But, that 2GB is shared by all programs. i.e., you cannot have one program take 1.8GB and another take 1.8GB as well.

These memory limits have existed ever since MS shipped their first 32-bit apps in the early 90s. But, back then, even 8MB of RAM was an expensive luxury. The concept of a program taking that much, let alone 100s of MB, was hard to imagine. To manage multiple programs running on a system with a small amount of RAM, the OS uses a file on disk to extend the amount of memory available to programs and the system - i.e., the paging file (virtual memory file). In principle, this can grow as large as the maximum address the OS can use - i.e., 4GB. So, running a number of 4MB apps on a 8MB system is very viable - the ones not in use get written to the paging file. However, if enough apps run together, then the paging file can fill up. At that point, the system reports that it has run out of memory. If the paging file is already the biggest it can be, that's a big problem. However, filling up a 4GB paging file with 1000 4MB apps is very unlikely to occur.

Moving forward to today, we can easily afford to fit our computers with 4GB - the maximum usable with 32-bit Windows. If one greedy app gobbles up most of the memory (e.g., CS3) and another large app comes along, the system has to write the first one to the paging file (which will be horribly slow) and, if the second program wants a big chunk of memory that exceeds the total amount available (not just physically but virtually), you get an out-of-memory error. Alternatively, the system can start swapping bits and pieces in and out of the paging file and, being stressed to the max, things can start crashing etc.

(BTW, I'm waiting for the 64-bit version of Vegas due later this year - http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...?ReleaseID=660 ).

Marco Wagner · August 21st, 2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Armour

I for one, would jump ship in a flash to existing 64 bit solutions (Linux) if they had the power tools we lust after. But alas, we are in the WinTel ship until it sinks from it's own bloated code...

I would jump ship too. I just don't get the NLE world where 64bits is the answer and no one is wanting to provide it!!!! 64bit CPU + 64bit OS currently out there in the wild for a while now, where are the 64bit APPS and NLEs????? Windows Media Encoder 64bit is snazzy though...fast!

Chris Soucy · August 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM

but hopefully still usefull.

Just a word of warning to anyone attempting to use 4 Gb of memory, especially if their MoBo is a year or so old. Something that crawled out of the woodwork (in very small print) for my MSI Diamond Plus MoBo when we came to build the system a year ago was this gem:

Yes, you could load it with 4Gb, but if you did so it dropped the memory clock speed to some rediculous level thereby shooting the system in both feet.

Best to check for this "feature" if you're considering this sort of upgrade.

It's (the MSI Diamond Plus) an NVidea chipset, BTW.

CS

Marco Wagner · August 21st, 2007, 08:33 PM

MSI makes GREAT gear, I didn't know about that issue, I used to buy their boards like mad. That very thing is why it pays to be a gamer :-) I overclock like a madman from some deep dank dark lab somewhere. Always do your (not you directly) research, there are 1000s of people who usually have made the mistake and posted it on the net somewhere. Before I so much as by a stick of ram, vidcard, cooler, board, etc. I listen to the gripes about it, read the reviews etc. etc. etc.

See if you can live with the cons or not

See if the pros are worth weight against the cons

IF 1 = NO THEN Move = to new product

(sorry, little goofy humour)

July 25th, 2007, 02:10 PM	#1
Jon Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 100	4GB RAM in XPP? Does anyone know the setting that allows the system recognize 4GB of RAM? Thanks.

July 31st, 2007, 08:59 PM	#2
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	better look at this first: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=98374 __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

August 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM	#7
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Way too late............ but hopefully still usefull. Just a word of warning to anyone attempting to use 4 Gb of memory, especially if their MoBo is a year or so old. Something that crawled out of the woodwork (in very small print) for my MSI Diamond Plus MoBo when we came to build the system a year ago was this gem: Yes, you could load it with 4Gb, but if you did so it dropped the memory clock speed to some rediculous level thereby shooting the system in both feet. Best to check for this "feature" if you're considering this sort of upgrade. It's (the MSI Diamond Plus) an NVidea chipset, BTW. CS

August 21st, 2007, 08:33 PM	#8
Marco Wagner Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saint Cloud, Florida Posts: 1,043	MSI makes GREAT gear, I didn't know about that issue, I used to buy their boards like mad. That very thing is why it pays to be a gamer :-) I overclock like a madman from some deep dank dark lab somewhere. Always do your (not you directly) research, there are 1000s of people who usually have made the mistake and posted it on the net somewhere. Before I so much as by a stick of ram, vidcard, cooler, board, etc. I listen to the gripes about it, read the reviews etc. etc. etc. See if you can live with the cons or not See if the pros are worth weight against the cons IF 1 = NO THEN Move = to new product (sorry, little goofy humour) __________________ www.facebook.com/projectspecto

August 1st, 2007, 08:17 AM	#3
John Miller Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA Posts: 968	In short, for 32-bit versions of XP (and Vista): Max RAM for everything = 4GB Max RAM for programs etc = 2GB Max RAM for system stuff (drivers etc) = 2GB The largest amount of RAM usable by one program = 2GB* *Unless the program has been written to be "3GB" aware. In such case, you can use the boot option to specify that up to 3GB can be used by programs instead of 2GB. This only works for programs written to take advantage of it. Other programs will still only get 2GB. But, as Stephen warns in the other thread, don't enable this option lightly. Programs not written for the 3GB option can crash the system when it is enabled. It isn't a fault of the program but a side effect of changing the address ranges for programs ("user mode") and system components ("kernel mode"). If you know that all your major applications support the 3GB, it will generally be okay. Mixing and matching aware and non-aware apps will almost certainly bring grief (at some unexpected point!)

August 1st, 2007, 10:21 AM	#5
John Miller Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA Posts: 968	There's a bit of a misconception about the 2GB for programs thing. 32-bit Windows can address memory up to a maximum of 2^32 bits = 4GB. Half that is dedicated to system stuff (unless you use the /3GB switch then it drops to 1GB). A single program can use up to 2GB though it will be slight less in reality due to other programs running. But, that 2GB is shared by all programs. i.e., you cannot have one program take 1.8GB and another take 1.8GB as well. These memory limits have existed ever since MS shipped their first 32-bit apps in the early 90s. But, back then, even 8MB of RAM was an expensive luxury. The concept of a program taking that much, let alone 100s of MB, was hard to imagine. To manage multiple programs running on a system with a small amount of RAM, the OS uses a file on disk to extend the amount of memory available to programs and the system - i.e., the paging file (virtual memory file). In principle, this can grow as large as the maximum address the OS can use - i.e., 4GB. So, running a number of 4MB apps on a 8MB system is very viable - the ones not in use get written to the paging file. However, if enough apps run together, then the paging file can fill up. At that point, the system reports that it has run out of memory. If the paging file is already the biggest it can be, that's a big problem. However, filling up a 4GB paging file with 1000 4MB apps is very unlikely to occur. Moving forward to today, we can easily afford to fit our computers with 4GB - the maximum usable with 32-bit Windows. If one greedy app gobbles up most of the memory (e.g., CS3) and another large app comes along, the system has to write the first one to the paging file (which will be horribly slow) and, if the second program wants a big chunk of memory that exceeds the total amount available (not just physically but virtually), you get an out-of-memory error. Alternatively, the system can start swapping bits and pieces in and out of the paging file and, being stressed to the max, things can start crashing etc. (BTW, I'm waiting for the 64-bit version of Vegas due later this year - http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...?ReleaseID=660 ).