Super 16 -> digital post -> super 16 at DVinfo.net

Ruben Broman · April 23rd, 2003, 08:39 AM

Hi!

I'm a student at the Stockholm Film School. We're shooting on Super16 and doing all editing on Steenbeck tables.

But we've got one picture in the film we're making that needs to be digitally manipulated. Do you guys and gals know the best way to do this, the low budget way.

I think I will try to use my XL1s to film the screen while showing the film with a projector. Next step is to take the film flip into Premiere and do the editing. When the editing is finished I guess I'll just screen the clip on a TV or computer monitor and use the super 16 camera to film the monitor?

I know that I'll be losing information whatever I do, but how do I lose the smallest amount of resolution, colors, contrast?

Is it better to use a DVCPro or a digibeta camera and then transfer it to miniDV so i can edit in Premiere? What kind of monitor is the best to use? TV or computer monitor or something else?

Is there anything else for me to think of?

Ruben

Richard Alvarez · April 23rd, 2003, 08:57 AM

You need to send the negative to a post house and have them perform a telecine. Not sure what's available in your area, but rank cintel is what you are looking for. They will tranfer the footage to whatever format you like. (Mini Dv, Digibeta...).

Take the transfered image, manipulate it in your NLE, export back to tape.

Send the tape out to (probably) the same house, and they can transfer to film.

This is going to be a VERY expensive process... so make sure "this trip is necessary".

Short of all that effort, a DoItYourself telecine will work, but the quality will suffer enormously. But it will be very cheap.

Ruben Broman · April 24th, 2003, 09:00 AM

Thank you for the information Richard, but as I wrote I'm looking for tips on how to do it the low budget way. Do you have any experience with DoItYourself telecine?

Ruben

Richard Alvarez · April 24th, 2003, 09:43 AM

Yes,

I have done some do it yourself transfers, but only with regular 8 or super 8.

The problem for 16mm is solving the "pulldown" issue. Especially important if the scene you are manipulating has sync sound.

In super 8 or regular 8, the video camera is aimed at the projected image. The PROJECTOR speed is altered in order to eliminate the "flicker" caused by the conflict in Film FPS and Video Scan rate.

For instance, here in America - For super 8 footage shot at 18fps - I speed up the projector to appx 20 frames per second. With a three bladed shutter in the projector, this yields 60 "Images" which then coincide with the 60 fields of interlaced video. Hence, the flicker dissapears. With old regular 8 footage, the usual frame rate is 16fps. It is slowed down to 15fps, with a two bladed shutter, again, yielding 30 Images that coincide with 30 fps video.

With 16mm, shot at 24 fps, you would normally use a FIVE Bladed shutter... (A special telecine projector). This yields 120 images a second... evenly divided by 60i - equals no flicker.

So you would still need a telecine modified projector, to maintain sync. Otherwise, you would have to "tune" the projector up or down, depending on the shutter blades, to come up with IPS that is divisible by frame/scan rate.

Have I thouroughly confused you?

All of this allows you to turn your film footage into video footage. Assuming you are successful with this, and manipulate the image in your NLE. Then you must shoot The image OFF of the computer screen with your 16mm camera. Again, you must work to eliminate the scan lines. Here, you are shooting low shutter speed with the camera, and "tuning" the refresh rate on the monitor to eliminate the roll bars.

OF course, each step tends to eliminate some of the image from the edges, in order to frame it properly.

All in all, a very cumbersome, inefficient method for achieving the effect and transfering it BACK to film.

I suspect you will be dissapointed by the results.

Seriously consider transferring the necessary footage at a transfer house. At leas you will have the best possible video image to work with in your nLE before you shoot it off the screen. The bonus is that it will look great, when you do a video transfer of the entire project anyway.

Good luck

Dylan Couper · April 24th, 2003, 10:02 AM

ANy ideas what it costs to have a transfer house put your 16mm film onto miniDV?

Richard Alvarez · April 24th, 2003, 11:19 AM

Dylan,

Do a search for "Film to video transfer". You will find different houses that charge different prices depending on the process they use.

Some are simple, "Shoot it off the wall" processes... not much better than you can do yourself.

Others involve flying laser scanners, wet-gate transfers, rank-cintel conversions and davinci color correction.

Prices will vary.

So will your mileage.

Don Donatello · April 24th, 2003, 09:30 PM

you will loose 60-70% plus on contrast/sharpness/color if you video off screen and then film off tv monitor

what kind of manipulation are you trying to do ?

how long is this section you want to add effects ?

if short ..
call you local/nearest lab/telecine and tell em you're student etc and ask/beg for either at cost or free transfer ..
or
find somebody with optical printer and use a digital still camera instead of the film camera on it.... do digital stills at HI resolution 1280x720 or higher .. then do effects at HD resolution ... go to nearest/local tape to film house and ask/talk them into going from stills to 16mm FILM for cost or free ..

if long ... re write/work the script/scene ... this should have been discussed/looked at /solved in pre-production not post..

April 23rd, 2003, 08:39 AM	#1
Ruben Broman New Boot Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 6	Super 16 -> digital post -> super 16 Hi! I'm a student at the Stockholm Film School. We're shooting on Super16 and doing all editing on Steenbeck tables. But we've got one picture in the film we're making that needs to be digitally manipulated. Do you guys and gals know the best way to do this, the low budget way. I think I will try to use my XL1s to film the screen while showing the film with a projector. Next step is to take the film flip into Premiere and do the editing. When the editing is finished I guess I'll just screen the clip on a TV or computer monitor and use the super 16 camera to film the monitor? I know that I'll be losing information whatever I do, but how do I lose the smallest amount of resolution, colors, contrast? Is it better to use a DVCPro or a digibeta camera and then transfer it to miniDV so i can edit in Premiere? What kind of monitor is the best to use? TV or computer monitor or something else? Is there anything else for me to think of? Ruben

April 24th, 2003, 10:02 AM	#5
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	ANy ideas what it costs to have a transfer house put your 16mm film onto miniDV? __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

April 23rd, 2003, 08:57 AM	#2
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	You need to send the negative to a post house and have them perform a telecine. Not sure what's available in your area, but rank cintel is what you are looking for. They will tranfer the footage to whatever format you like. (Mini Dv, Digibeta...). Take the transfered image, manipulate it in your NLE, export back to tape. Send the tape out to (probably) the same house, and they can transfer to film. This is going to be a VERY expensive process... so make sure "this trip is necessary". Short of all that effort, a DoItYourself telecine will work, but the quality will suffer enormously. But it will be very cheap.

April 24th, 2003, 09:00 AM	#3
Ruben Broman New Boot Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 6	Thank you for the information Richard, but as I wrote I'm looking for tips on how to do it the low budget way. Do you have any experience with DoItYourself telecine? Ruben

April 24th, 2003, 09:43 AM	#4
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Yes, I have done some do it yourself transfers, but only with regular 8 or super 8. The problem for 16mm is solving the "pulldown" issue. Especially important if the scene you are manipulating has sync sound. In super 8 or regular 8, the video camera is aimed at the projected image. The PROJECTOR speed is altered in order to eliminate the "flicker" caused by the conflict in Film FPS and Video Scan rate. For instance, here in America - For super 8 footage shot at 18fps - I speed up the projector to appx 20 frames per second. With a three bladed shutter in the projector, this yields 60 "Images" which then coincide with the 60 fields of interlaced video. Hence, the flicker dissapears. With old regular 8 footage, the usual frame rate is 16fps. It is slowed down to 15fps, with a two bladed shutter, again, yielding 30 Images that coincide with 30 fps video. With 16mm, shot at 24 fps, you would normally use a FIVE Bladed shutter... (A special telecine projector). This yields 120 images a second... evenly divided by 60i - equals no flicker. So you would still need a telecine modified projector, to maintain sync. Otherwise, you would have to "tune" the projector up or down, depending on the shutter blades, to come up with IPS that is divisible by frame/scan rate. Have I thouroughly confused you? All of this allows you to turn your film footage into video footage. Assuming you are successful with this, and manipulate the image in your NLE. Then you must shoot The image OFF of the computer screen with your 16mm camera. Again, you must work to eliminate the scan lines. Here, you are shooting low shutter speed with the camera, and "tuning" the refresh rate on the monitor to eliminate the roll bars. OF course, each step tends to eliminate some of the image from the edges, in order to frame it properly. All in all, a very cumbersome, inefficient method for achieving the effect and transfering it BACK to film. I suspect you will be dissapointed by the results. Seriously consider transferring the necessary footage at a transfer house. At leas you will have the best possible video image to work with in your nLE before you shoot it off the screen. The bonus is that it will look great, when you do a video transfer of the entire project anyway. Good luck

April 24th, 2003, 11:19 AM	#6
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Dylan, Do a search for "Film to video transfer". You will find different houses that charge different prices depending on the process they use. Some are simple, "Shoot it off the wall" processes... not much better than you can do yourself. Others involve flying laser scanners, wet-gate transfers, rank-cintel conversions and davinci color correction. Prices will vary. So will your mileage.

April 24th, 2003, 09:30 PM	#7
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	you will loose 60-70% plus on contrast/sharpness/color if you video off screen and then film off tv monitor what kind of manipulation are you trying to do ? how long is this section you want to add effects ? if short .. call you local/nearest lab/telecine and tell em you're student etc and ask/beg for either at cost or free transfer .. or find somebody with optical printer and use a digital still camera instead of the film camera on it.... do digital stills at HI resolution 1280x720 or higher .. then do effects at HD resolution ... go to nearest/local tape to film house and ask/talk them into going from stills to 16mm FILM for cost or free .. if long ... re write/work the script/scene ... this should have been discussed/looked at /solved in pre-production not post..