Want recommendations for NLE and GL2 at DVinfo.net

Dirk Mitchell · April 17th, 2003, 07:32 AM

I would like to get some of your recommendations on good NLE software to use with GL2. I currently use Ulead's MSP 6.0, which has pros and cons, cons being capturing is not too good and lack of real-time preview (I think 6.5 and 7.0 address this, but I don't know if I want to spend money to upgrade if something better is out there.). I use an old version of Pinnacle Studio DV 1.26 mainly for it's smart capturing. But here's where the problem arises.

Evidently, Canons have a timecode problem, or (according to Canon) some NLE's have a problem with Canon's timecode while capturing. I've experienced sporadic timecode breaks in the middle of clips and on tapes not even recorded on the Canon. Blacking's not an issue here because the tapes have continuous TCs and they work fine on my JVC Cybercam. I've seen this documented in both Pinnacle and FCP software forums. I think I even saw it on Avid forums, but I can't be certain. I believe Pinnacle has fixed it. I don't know about Final Cut Pro (is that just for Macs?. I'm PC-based.) However, this might not be an issue since using my JVC for capturing will put less use on the tape drive of my Canon. Would there be any quality differences?

So my question remains what is good NLE software that will work with a GL2? I've seen mention of Vegas and Premiere here. I'm not sure I want to invest the money in both software and hardware to go to Avid. I would like real-time previewing in addition to the standard multitrack overlays, video and audio filters, basic transitions, moving path and good titling.

Right now I'm running Win98SE on a PIII 550Mhz and a 40Gb dedicated hard drive for video, so I'm a little behind (it used to be so fast!). I'm not usually doing any projects over 30 minutes long and not planning on any broadcast work (but who knows?)

Hope y'all can help me.

Thanks.

K. Forman · April 17th, 2003, 07:42 AM

Most of the folks around here are Vegas fans. I personally prefer Premiere for edit. However, I usually use the capture feature in Storm Edit, since most of what I do is with the DV Storm card and the GL1. I use Premiere with analog capture.

So, in short, download a bunch of trials, and see which works best for you.

Rob Easler · April 17th, 2003, 09:21 AM

Kieth is right you can download trials and see for yourself what you like. Everyone is different and I believe there are many good choices now. THe competition in NLEs continues to improve by leaps and bounds and will continue to do so even more as the years progress. One company indroduces ground breaking new features like realtime previews and then everyone else has to do it by the next release to keep up. That's good for us. I personally used to use premiere but now am a Vegas Fan and use it exclusively with no other hardware but the OHCI. I must reccomend Vegas.

I will say however for DVD authoring the upcomming Adobe Encore release looks VERY VERY interesting. I think it may be to DVD Authoring what AfterEffects is to compositing if it works well.

Rob Easler · April 17th, 2003, 09:37 AM

Oops, I forgot to mention I use a GL1.

Ed Smith · April 17th, 2003, 10:04 AM

I never used Vegas, and probably will not. I'm a Premiere Fan and have been for the past 4 years or so. Once you know how to edit with it, it’s a great tool. Although I have a feeling that you will have to upgrade your operating system to Win 2000 or XP and run either. Is it a generic capture card you are using? If so you will not really benefit from some of their real-time effects or even real time transitions when you use either product with a generic capture card. Although you can have a real-time preview with premiere you will still have to render each transition and effect before you can export it out or see it correctly. By buying the software and the hardware you normally will not have to do this.

Pinnacle done a good one called DV200 it came with Premiere 6 and firewire capture card it only cost £200!!! Not to sure whether they still do it though.

Any way, in the end it’s your decision, try before you buy; get opinions from different people (who you know, who you don't, people who use it). Try and get a demo with somebody who knows how it works. Normally the best things are kept 'behind' the software, so getting a demo with someone who knows it is probably a very good idea.

Premiere costs about £500 to buy on its own. But you can get it with the hardware for much less £450 i.e. Pinnacle DV500 DVD, Matrox RT.X 10. That’s the way I would go.

All the best,

Ed Smith

Ed Smith

K. Forman · April 17th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Just to clarify what Ed said about WinXP and 2000- You should be able to work just fine with what you have, but... when you are using the Fat 32 systems like Win98, you are limited to file sizes under 2 gig. With the newer OS systems, you can get away with larger video files.

Dirk Mitchell · April 18th, 2003, 06:20 AM

Thanks all. You don't know how much I appreciate your replies. I guess I was premature in asking about NLEs because after buying my GL2 this year, I'll probably have to wait until next year to allocate money to a new system. But it gives me a direction to watch. In the mean time I'll live with what I got.

Ed Smith, you talk about generic capture cards not benefitting from real-time preview. If I already have the DV files on my computer, how does the 1394 card help with previewing? I thought it was only there to import and export data.

Also, do any of you Canon users have the timecode problem I described earlier? I would think it would affect batch capturing as it did with Studio DV.

Thanks again.

Jeff Donald · April 18th, 2003, 06:40 AM

FCP is a Mac only product. It is a FCP problem and not a Canon problem. Their TC is within DV spec. The latest version of FCP, not yet released, is said to have new sync compensators for the Canon cameras. We'll know for sure when it is released to the general public.

Graham Bernard · April 19th, 2003, 01:44 AM

I went:

1: VideoWave III > > VideoWave 5 - {Arrggghhh !!!!!! Didn't know any better}

2: Pinnacle Studio 7 - So I won't commit suicide just yet. Maybe I'll be more patient - ...hmmmm....

3: Sonic Foundry - Video Factory !!!! "Road to Damascus" I've seen the light . . . .. so that's how a proper NLE should work - AH!

4: Sonic Foundry - Vegas Video 3.0c - "Watch Out Spielberg!!!!" - Keyframing; Integrated multi-track Video and Audio - As many tracks as you want!

5: Sonic Foundry - VEGAS 4.0a . . . . . . . I'm actually lost for words! Go here and be blown away:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/products/vegas4.pdf

My setup of the XM2 plus VEGAS 4.0a [now updated to 4.0b with 24p editing!] is just soooo dreamy

Grazie

Dirk Mitchell · April 20th, 2003, 05:56 AM

So I downloaded the demo for Vegas 4.0b and all I can say is, Oh . . . my . . . God! I've been using a piece of crap. I couldn't believe the speed difference. Even on my existing hardware (which I wouldn't have to upgrade), Vegas made my system act like a new computer. The real-time previewing, the gobs of video FXs, capturing (although I couldn't test batch capturing with the demo.), the list is endless.

I may have to find a little money to get this, it would definitely save some aggravation in the long term, not to mention time spent editing projects. Of course, it was a little overwhelming as any new software is. You get use to doing tasks on your current setup, so you don't have a clue how to do them in the new software. The learning curve should be fairly shallow.

I guess I should try Premiere, too. I'll have to find somebody with DSL, the Vegas 4 download was 40Mb and over 2 hours of modem download time. Premiere, I think, is 70Mb.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Dylan Couper · April 20th, 2003, 09:32 AM

Vegas. It's powerful and easy to learn.
I don't think you can use Vegas and NOT be happy with it.

K. Forman · April 20th, 2003, 09:54 AM

Dirk- Before you try to download Premiere, go to your local bookstore/news stand and look at some of the video magazines. Sometimes they will have a CD Rom with the Premiere trial on it.

Rob Talley · April 21st, 2003, 06:59 AM

I had picked up Droblas & Greenbergs Premier 6 Bible w/CDROM.
It had the demo versions of Premier, AE, and a few others.

If I had to do it all over again today, I really think I would go with Vegas. I ran the Beta and the Demo and was very impressed.

Premier can be very picky about its operating environment. I used to run Version 5.5 on W98 and it was painful to say the least. Of course 5.5 was painful anyway :-) You will want the benefit of NTFS to get over the 2/4GB limits found on FAT32.

Best of luck.

K. Forman · April 21st, 2003, 07:13 AM

Rob- Premiere 5.5 was a hacked version, so it was likely to be problematic. Premiere is a decent program, not the best, but very good for the price. I'll also be there to buy 7.0 when it comes out.

Rob Talley · April 21st, 2003, 11:54 AM

Probably explains why I have bad memories of it and stuck with my clunky Pinnacle software. I've been happy with 6.0 and the 6.5 upgrade. In W2K it's been very stable as long as I don't go putzing around with lot's of other software. I've only had one problem during captures with it and that got cleared up during a system rebuild. I don't think it was a Premier issue but more of an issue with my particular W2K installation.

It would've been nice to have Vegas 4.0 around when investing in all of the parts, perhaps would've gone down a different track with the software. Still recovering from the GL2, accessories, and software. Not sure I could justify switching though.

I guess the bottom line is just an echo of the suggestion that whatever Dirk decides, he would benefit much more running either XP or W2K over a W9x platform.

April 17th, 2003, 07:32 AM	#1
Dirk Mitchell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 24	Want recommendations for NLE and GL2 I would like to get some of your recommendations on good NLE software to use with GL2. I currently use Ulead's MSP 6.0, which has pros and cons, cons being capturing is not too good and lack of real-time preview (I think 6.5 and 7.0 address this, but I don't know if I want to spend money to upgrade if something better is out there.). I use an old version of Pinnacle Studio DV 1.26 mainly for it's smart capturing. But here's where the problem arises. Evidently, Canons have a timecode problem, or (according to Canon) some NLE's have a problem with Canon's timecode while capturing. I've experienced sporadic timecode breaks in the middle of clips and on tapes not even recorded on the Canon. Blacking's not an issue here because the tapes have continuous TCs and they work fine on my JVC Cybercam. I've seen this documented in both Pinnacle and FCP software forums. I think I even saw it on Avid forums, but I can't be certain. I believe Pinnacle has fixed it. I don't know about Final Cut Pro (is that just for Macs?. I'm PC-based.) However, this might not be an issue since using my JVC for capturing will put less use on the tape drive of my Canon. Would there be any quality differences? So my question remains what is good NLE software that will work with a GL2? I've seen mention of Vegas and Premiere here. I'm not sure I want to invest the money in both software and hardware to go to Avid. I would like real-time previewing in addition to the standard multitrack overlays, video and audio filters, basic transitions, moving path and good titling. Right now I'm running Win98SE on a PIII 550Mhz and a 40Gb dedicated hard drive for video, so I'm a little behind (it used to be so fast!). I'm not usually doing any projects over 30 minutes long and not planning on any broadcast work (but who knows?) Hope y'all can help me. Thanks. __________________ -- Dirk Mitchell

April 17th, 2003, 10:04 AM	#5
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	I never used Vegas, and probably will not. I'm a Premiere Fan and have been for the past 4 years or so. Once you know how to edit with it, it’s a great tool. Although I have a feeling that you will have to upgrade your operating system to Win 2000 or XP and run either. Is it a generic capture card you are using? If so you will not really benefit from some of their real-time effects or even real time transitions when you use either product with a generic capture card. Although you can have a real-time preview with premiere you will still have to render each transition and effect before you can export it out or see it correctly. By buying the software and the hardware you normally will not have to do this. Pinnacle done a good one called DV200 it came with Premiere 6 and firewire capture card it only cost £200!!! Not to sure whether they still do it though. Any way, in the end it’s your decision, try before you buy; get opinions from different people (who you know, who you don't, people who use it). Try and get a demo with somebody who knows how it works. Normally the best things are kept 'behind' the software, so getting a demo with someone who knows it is probably a very good idea. Premiere costs about £500 to buy on its own. But you can get it with the hardware for much less £450 i.e. Pinnacle DV500 DVD, Matrox RT.X 10. That’s the way I would go. All the best, Ed Smith Ed Smith __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

April 18th, 2003, 06:20 AM	#7
Dirk Mitchell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 24	Thanks all. You don't know how much I appreciate your replies. I guess I was premature in asking about NLEs because after buying my GL2 this year, I'll probably have to wait until next year to allocate money to a new system. But it gives me a direction to watch. In the mean time I'll live with what I got. Ed Smith, you talk about generic capture cards not benefitting from real-time preview. If I already have the DV files on my computer, how does the 1394 card help with previewing? I thought it was only there to import and export data. Also, do any of you Canon users have the timecode problem I described earlier? I would think it would affect batch capturing as it did with Studio DV. Thanks again. __________________ -- Dirk Mitchell

April 18th, 2003, 06:40 AM	#8
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	FCP is a Mac only product. It is a FCP problem and not a Canon problem. Their TC is within DV spec. The latest version of FCP, not yet released, is said to have new sync compensators for the Canon cameras. We'll know for sure when it is released to the general public. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 19th, 2003, 01:44 AM	#9
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Vegas Here! My road to Inner Peace!!! I went: 1: VideoWave III > > VideoWave 5 - {Arrggghhh !!!!!! Didn't know any better} 2: Pinnacle Studio 7 - So I won't commit suicide just yet. Maybe I'll be more patient - ...hmmmm.... 3: Sonic Foundry - Video Factory !!!! "Road to Damascus" I've seen the light . . . .. so that's how a proper NLE should work - AH! 4: Sonic Foundry - Vegas Video 3.0c - "Watch Out Spielberg!!!!" - Keyframing; Integrated multi-track Video and Audio - As many tracks as you want! 5: Sonic Foundry - VEGAS 4.0a . . . . . . . I'm actually lost for words! Go here and be blown away: http://www.sonicfoundry.com/products/vegas4.pdf My setup of the XM2 plus VEGAS 4.0a [now updated to 4.0b with 24p editing!] is just soooo dreamy Grazie

April 17th, 2003, 07:42 AM	#2
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Most of the folks around here are Vegas fans. I personally prefer Premiere for edit. However, I usually use the capture feature in Storm Edit, since most of what I do is with the DV Storm card and the GL1. I use Premiere with analog capture. So, in short, download a bunch of trials, and see which works best for you.

April 17th, 2003, 09:21 AM	#3
Rob Easler Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 219	Kieth is right you can download trials and see for yourself what you like. Everyone is different and I believe there are many good choices now. THe competition in NLEs continues to improve by leaps and bounds and will continue to do so even more as the years progress. One company indroduces ground breaking new features like realtime previews and then everyone else has to do it by the next release to keep up. That's good for us. I personally used to use premiere but now am a Vegas Fan and use it exclusively with no other hardware but the OHCI. I must reccomend Vegas. I will say however for DVD authoring the upcomming Adobe Encore release looks VERY VERY interesting. I think it may be to DVD Authoring what AfterEffects is to compositing if it works well.

April 17th, 2003, 09:37 AM	#4
Rob Easler Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 219	Oops, I forgot to mention I use a GL1.

April 17th, 2003, 12:20 PM	#6
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Just to clarify what Ed said about WinXP and 2000- You should be able to work just fine with what you have, but... when you are using the Fat 32 systems like Win98, you are limited to file sizes under 2 gig. With the newer OS systems, you can get away with larger video files.

April 20th, 2003, 05:56 AM	#10
Dirk Mitchell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 24	So I downloaded the demo for Vegas 4.0b and all I can say is, Oh . . . my . . . God! I've been using a piece of crap. I couldn't believe the speed difference. Even on my existing hardware (which I wouldn't have to upgrade), Vegas made my system act like a new computer. The real-time previewing, the gobs of video FXs, capturing (although I couldn't test batch capturing with the demo.), the list is endless. I may have to find a little money to get this, it would definitely save some aggravation in the long term, not to mention time spent editing projects. Of course, it was a little overwhelming as any new software is. You get use to doing tasks on your current setup, so you don't have a clue how to do them in the new software. The learning curve should be fairly shallow. I guess I should try Premiere, too. I'll have to find somebody with DSL, the Vegas 4 download was 40Mb and over 2 hours of modem download time. Premiere, I think, is 70Mb. Thanks for the suggestions. __________________ -- Dirk Mitchell

April 20th, 2003, 09:32 AM	#11
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Vegas. It's powerful and easy to learn. I don't think you can use Vegas and NOT be happy with it. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

April 20th, 2003, 09:54 AM	#12
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Dirk- Before you try to download Premiere, go to your local bookstore/news stand and look at some of the video magazines. Sometimes they will have a CD Rom with the Premiere trial on it.

April 21st, 2003, 06:59 AM	#13
Rob Talley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 27	I had picked up Droblas & Greenbergs Premier 6 Bible w/CDROM. It had the demo versions of Premier, AE, and a few others. If I had to do it all over again today, I really think I would go with Vegas. I ran the Beta and the Demo and was very impressed. Premier can be very picky about its operating environment. I used to run Version 5.5 on W98 and it was painful to say the least. Of course 5.5 was painful anyway :-) You will want the benefit of NTFS to get over the 2/4GB limits found on FAT32. Best of luck.

April 21st, 2003, 07:13 AM	#14
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Rob- Premiere 5.5 was a hacked version, so it was likely to be problematic. Premiere is a decent program, not the best, but very good for the price. I'll also be there to buy 7.0 when it comes out.

April 21st, 2003, 11:54 AM	#15
Rob Talley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 27	Probably explains why I have bad memories of it and stuck with my clunky Pinnacle software. I've been happy with 6.0 and the 6.5 upgrade. In W2K it's been very stable as long as I don't go putzing around with lot's of other software. I've only had one problem during captures with it and that got cleared up during a system rebuild. I don't think it was a Premier issue but more of an issue with my particular W2K installation. It would've been nice to have Vegas 4.0 around when investing in all of the parts, perhaps would've gone down a different track with the software. Still recovering from the GL2, accessories, and software. Not sure I could justify switching though. I guess the bottom line is just an echo of the suggestion that whatever Dirk decides, he would benefit much more running either XP or W2K over a W9x platform.