addressing amd athlon users...

K. Forman · April 9th, 2003, 05:03 PM

I may be wrong, but if you will eventually have two processors, you can operate with just the one MP on a dual cpu board. You cannot operate a single or even two XP on a dual cpu board, or a MP on a single cpu board.

I'm not sure if there would be any advantage to running a single MP, though I'm sure there isn't any. Except the fact that you can add another one in a few months.

Christopher Go · April 9th, 2003, 10:42 PM

You can run dual XPs but I don't recommend it, especially not for your everyday, and hopefully, very stable editing computer. Doing this will also void your warranty with the motherboard manufacturer and AMD's since it requires modifications to the bridges of the CPU.

MPs are more expensive as well since they are marketed for higher end workstation, and low end server applications. Not to mention that AMD "certifies" these processors for SMP use as well.

I'd just go for the fastest XP processor available, Adi, if you're still intent on the AMD route.

Actually, unless you want to learn about computers in general, I'd just get a turnkey if I were you.

Garret Ambrosio · April 10th, 2003, 03:27 PM

MP processors are exactly what Chris has said, the XP processors are really "intended" to be used in single applications. The mods to the bridges he is talking about is not recommend unless you are very confident about your technical abilities and have steady hands. These act like switches and depending which you short the processor will unlock some properties that AMD has locked. The bridges are about the thickness of a single strand of hair and maybe 1/16" long and you need to short them using a pencil or conductive tape. On some AMD cpus, you would have to fill in a dip between the bridges with nail polish or similar chemical and then short them with a pencil.

I respect Chris's opinion regarding the fastest AMD XP CPU, but do not share it. Videomaker has stated and from my own experience especially with Windows XP the dual processors will make a mountain of difference when it comes to performance especially to CPU intensive applications like editing and rendering( which is also dependent on a few other things like your PC subsystem (Hard drive speed, RAM, etc.) MP processors are not as fast per se compared to their hot rod cousins, but they work harder, together with a twin. The MP route is definitely more money, but it may not be much more than going with Intel.

Christopher Go · April 10th, 2003, 08:54 PM

Hey Garret! Fellow overclocker and computer hardware enthusiast. I agree actually, I like going dual and try to get as much power for my dollar. Every machine I've built for myself has been a dual (unless we're talking about a firewall, but even then...).

I was recommending an XP only because Adi seemed intent on that route but by all means, it can be fun and a great learning experience to build your own machine, even if it is a dual for the first time (which I did but spent lots of time researching the topic).

For DV however I do notice you have to be more careful about decisions since this isn't all about hot rod fun (well, not all of it anyway). Its good that Adi is weighing his options carefully - just not too long since there's so much to learn elsewhere!

Garret Ambrosio · April 11th, 2003, 11:23 AM

Chris, wow that's two hobbies we share ;P but before we start holding hands and picking out curtains (j/k, I got that from Full Metal Jacket or some drill sargent, anyway I finally got to use it.) The Dual Route is the way to go as we are both in agreement, but it doesn't necessarily mean he has to hot rod the system, actually quite the reverse since he can order a turnkey or even a , God forbid a HP or Dell that has a dual AMD CPU solution. We should talk sometime seriously though since I have a problem with my 3DMark03 score no matter what I do. I also got a problem getting to a 200MHz Memory bus peed to be double data rated at 400MHz with Corsair RAM CAS 3. But that's under subject for another forum...:)

Adi Head · April 13th, 2003, 03:52 AM

ok. i think i understand the xp/mp issue. so let's say i go with an athlon xp2200, i'm still a little confused as to what motherboard will work nicely and best fit my needs. i realize that i should select a known and respected brand name such as: asus, msi, gigabyte, etc. and that i should stay away from VIA chipsets. chris go suggested NVidia chipsets. any specific suggestions?

the computer will be used for editing purposes and some sound recording. for personal use, no clients and so on. i imagine will be surfing the web now and again. not into gaming at all.
running software: vegas 4, after effects, sound mixing software (not sure which yet). might want to run xpress dv in the future.

not looking for the fastest system available, but not one that won't leave me far behind. most important that it is stable and powerful enough to for "realtime" features and so on.

mb's i've come across so far, but don't know much about:
ASUS A7N8XDEL NVIDIA NFORCE
EPOX 8RDA
MSI K7N2G-ILSR
MSI K7N420 PRO NFORCE
ABIT NF7 NFORCE 2

not much need for onboard features as i will have a seperate sound card, graphics card and firewire.

any ideas, suggestion, comments? all are welcom. sorry about being so hesitant before buying. i just cant afford missing something and being stuck with hardware to be used as door stops.

thanks

K. Forman · April 13th, 2003, 05:24 AM

Avoid Asus- if anything goes wrong, you'll never get support. If you want to go with Abit, first check out these two sites-
http://www.sudhian.com/
http://forum.abit-usa.com/

Read up on the boards you might be looking at! I have the KG7 Raid, and think it is a very stable board. However, when I bought it, I wasn't aware that I would have to make changes to the soft menu to make it stable. I went through almost a year of lock ups until I found the answer.

If possible, while shopping for componants, go to the manufacturer's support forum, and see what problems others have been facing. On a side note, I have heard good things about Soyo and Thunderbird. You might look into them as well.

Christopher Go · April 13th, 2003, 05:22 PM

That's a very good suggestion, getting familiar with the computer hardware forums, if only to post questions when you run into trouble. Many motherboards also have dedicated websites especially if they are unique in some regard like the Abit based one over at Sudhian.

For specific models I can't think of any off the top of my head. I would start by doing research over at www.anandtech.com for reviews on boards with that sweet ratio between performance and price. There are other sites of course - perhaps some less advertiser inclined - but I think we're getting too involved if we get deeper than that. Here's a motherboard roundup of motherboards based on the nForce2 chipset:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1759

Shop at a reputable vendor as well. I like www.mwave.com. The retailer can often do the returns for you so you won't have to deal with the manufacturer directly. I know many people who've complained long after the return period and still gotten returns from good vendors. Check out www.resellerratings.com if in doubt.

Hey Garret, totally agree with you. I haven't been able to have that kind of "fun" problem of late - my Tyan Tiger MP is against any deviation whatsoever, as vanilla in options as you can get (like no manipulating bus, etc). I'm salivating over dual Opterons...

Garret Ambrosio · April 14th, 2003, 03:39 PM

If AMD would be your choice I would also suggest you check out HTTP://amdmb.com. Look at each of the forums corresponding to each mobo. Check out others who are literally pulling out their hair and decide which one had the least bald users. I've never had a problem with ASUS, but then again I'm one user and there are others who have. I also never had problems with their tech support, but then again I never real used them too often. I only used it twice in my career as a systems engineer and the Asus guy was quite helpful, albeit he couldn't correct the problems but was able to direct me to find the solution myself. But then again, that's me. Without giving you the resume, I am pretty familiar in the realms of "box" building...

But I've used and read reviews about most of the mobo manufacturers that you listed. I can tell you one thing that the consensus among most people I've spoken to that are also adept box builders that the A7N8X Deluxe is arguably the best mobo for the AMD CPU's. I had a friend here in the office that opted for Abit and is now dealing with them regarding a cross shipment to RMA his board because the mic circuits on the onboard is hissing. They told him he would have to pay a $100 deposit to do a cross ship or otherwise he would have to send his board to them, God knows how long it would take until they send it back, for the meantime he's out of a mobo. Performance wise the A7n8X is also one of the best performers.

Do yourself a favor and stay the heck away from VIA, as far as possible if you like to keep your wits. Nothing but problems with most of their chipsets that I've tried.

I suggest you break the auxillary piggybank and pick up a XP2400+(1.93 GHz) for ~$20 more than the XP2200(1.8)+ and you will get slightly better performance out of it. Actually if you spend some of that hard earned dough on a excellent pair of 400MHz DDR RAM (Crucial or Corsair, {Samsung Chips}) and is willing to do some overclocking, get a Volcano 7+ Heatsink\FAN you can get the XP2100+(1.75Thoroughbred B core) to overclock to 2.4GHz true speed using 180Mhz(FSB*13.5@1.7volts) which will equate to roughly between an XP2800+-XP2900+ for less than that of the XP2200+.

Chris, Opterons, hmmm, grrr...(Homer Simpson) seriously is that the Hammer's prodcution name? It's a bit late, seeing as AMD had announced its debut back the end of 2002. A well, "Mr. Bush, It's all about the ECONOMY, stupid!"

Adi Head · April 14th, 2003, 05:21 PM

thanks for all the replies. i'll look up some of the stuff listed here, do some more research and let you know what i finally decided on. thanks.
adi.

K. Forman · April 14th, 2003, 06:10 PM

Adi- just something else to mull over:
If you go with a turn-key system, you will have:
1) A warranty and support, which will help you from pulling out all of your hair.
2) A system that has been configured to work. Someone else has already pulled out thir hair, to insure it works for you.
3) A larger price tag than if you built it your self.
4 )A software bundle, which may actually have something useful.

If you build it your self:
1) You will get to pull your hair out figuring out the little details.
2) No support, and no warranty, except MAYBE the seller/factory. A big maybe.
3) A smaller price tag.
4) Satisfaction in knowing the machine, because YOU built it.
5) Probably no software, except what you buy for it.

Both of my machines were built using parts I selected. I know them fairly well, which comes in real handy because I have no support. I dropped almost $4,500 on this machine, but got exactly what I wanted.

Macauley Peterson · April 21st, 2003, 03:32 PM

My 2 cents:

I built an Athlon XP PC based on the MSI K7N420 board about a year ago and have been quite happy with it. Fairly stable under Win 2000.

It took a significant investment of time to research, buy components, and construct/configure the machine before the "happiness" set in, however, and with little or no cost savings.

If I had it to do over again, I would buy a turnkey solution.

(Well, I just bought a Mac, but that's for another post).

The nice thing about building your own, though is you can use the sweet Western Digital Special Edition drives with the 8 MB cache -- highly recommended, if that's an option. And don't skimp on RAM. I use a Gig.

K. Forman · April 21st, 2003, 04:04 PM

Macauley- I guess the real savings in a build-it-yourself PC, can be eaten up by shipping. Buying from a local wholesaler should shave at least a couple hundred. Should. Large scale manufacturers can buy componants by the truckload for far less than we can one-at-a-time. This way, their total cost in a PC is a tenth of what they sell it for.

The biggest drawback to buying off the shelf, is getting what THEY want to put in it.

April 10th, 2003, 03:27 PM	#18
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	MP processors are exactly what Chris has said, the XP processors are really "intended" to be used in single applications. The mods to the bridges he is talking about is not recommend unless you are very confident about your technical abilities and have steady hands. These act like switches and depending which you short the processor will unlock some properties that AMD has locked. The bridges are about the thickness of a single strand of hair and maybe 1/16" long and you need to short them using a pencil or conductive tape. On some AMD cpus, you would have to fill in a dip between the bridges with nail polish or similar chemical and then short them with a pencil. I respect Chris's opinion regarding the fastest AMD XP CPU, but do not share it. Videomaker has stated and from my own experience especially with Windows XP the dual processors will make a mountain of difference when it comes to performance especially to CPU intensive applications like editing and rendering( which is also dependent on a few other things like your PC subsystem (Hard drive speed, RAM, etc.) MP processors are not as fast per se compared to their hot rod cousins, but they work harder, together with a twin. The MP route is definitely more money, but it may not be much more than going with Intel. __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

April 11th, 2003, 11:23 AM	#20
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	Chris, wow that's two hobbies we share ;P but before we start holding hands and picking out curtains (j/k, I got that from Full Metal Jacket or some drill sargent, anyway I finally got to use it.) The Dual Route is the way to go as we are both in agreement, but it doesn't necessarily mean he has to hot rod the system, actually quite the reverse since he can order a turnkey or even a , God forbid a HP or Dell that has a dual AMD CPU solution. We should talk sometime seriously though since I have a problem with my 3DMark03 score no matter what I do. I also got a problem getting to a 200MHz Memory bus peed to be double data rated at 400MHz with Corsair RAM CAS 3. But that's under subject for another forum...:) __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

April 14th, 2003, 03:39 PM	#24
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	If AMD would be your choice I would also suggest you check out HTTP://amdmb.com. Look at each of the forums corresponding to each mobo. Check out others who are literally pulling out their hair and decide which one had the least bald users. I've never had a problem with ASUS, but then again I'm one user and there are others who have. I also never had problems with their tech support, but then again I never real used them too often. I only used it twice in my career as a systems engineer and the Asus guy was quite helpful, albeit he couldn't correct the problems but was able to direct me to find the solution myself. But then again, that's me. Without giving you the resume, I am pretty familiar in the realms of "box" building... But I've used and read reviews about most of the mobo manufacturers that you listed. I can tell you one thing that the consensus among most people I've spoken to that are also adept box builders that the A7N8X Deluxe is arguably the best mobo for the AMD CPU's. I had a friend here in the office that opted for Abit and is now dealing with them regarding a cross shipment to RMA his board because the mic circuits on the onboard is hissing. They told him he would have to pay a $100 deposit to do a cross ship or otherwise he would have to send his board to them, God knows how long it would take until they send it back, for the meantime he's out of a mobo. Performance wise the A7n8X is also one of the best performers. Do yourself a favor and stay the heck away from VIA, as far as possible if you like to keep your wits. Nothing but problems with most of their chipsets that I've tried. I suggest you break the auxillary piggybank and pick up a XP2400+(1.93 GHz) for ~$20 more than the XP2200(1.8)+ and you will get slightly better performance out of it. Actually if you spend some of that hard earned dough on a excellent pair of 400MHz DDR RAM (Crucial or Corsair, {Samsung Chips}) and is willing to do some overclocking, get a Volcano 7+ Heatsink\FAN you can get the XP2100+(1.75Thoroughbred B core) to overclock to 2.4GHz true speed using 180Mhz(FSB*13.5@1.7volts) which will equate to roughly between an XP2800+-XP2900+ for less than that of the XP2200+. Chris, Opterons, hmmm, grrr...(Homer Simpson) seriously is that the Hammer's prodcution name? It's a bit late, seeing as AMD had announced its debut back the end of 2002. A well, "Mr. Bush, It's all about the ECONOMY, stupid!" __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

April 9th, 2003, 05:03 PM	#16
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I may be wrong, but if you will eventually have two processors, you can operate with just the one MP on a dual cpu board. You cannot operate a single or even two XP on a dual cpu board, or a MP on a single cpu board. I'm not sure if there would be any advantage to running a single MP, though I'm sure there isn't any. Except the fact that you can add another one in a few months.

April 9th, 2003, 10:42 PM	#17
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	You can run dual XPs but I don't recommend it, especially not for your everyday, and hopefully, very stable editing computer. Doing this will also void your warranty with the motherboard manufacturer and AMD's since it requires modifications to the bridges of the CPU. MPs are more expensive as well since they are marketed for higher end workstation, and low end server applications. Not to mention that AMD "certifies" these processors for SMP use as well. I'd just go for the fastest XP processor available, Adi, if you're still intent on the AMD route. Actually, unless you want to learn about computers in general, I'd just get a turnkey if I were you.

April 10th, 2003, 08:54 PM	#19
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Hey Garret! Fellow overclocker and computer hardware enthusiast. I agree actually, I like going dual and try to get as much power for my dollar. Every machine I've built for myself has been a dual (unless we're talking about a firewall, but even then...). I was recommending an XP only because Adi seemed intent on that route but by all means, it can be fun and a great learning experience to build your own machine, even if it is a dual for the first time (which I did but spent lots of time researching the topic). For DV however I do notice you have to be more careful about decisions since this isn't all about hot rod fun (well, not all of it anyway). Its good that Adi is weighing his options carefully - just not too long since there's so much to learn elsewhere!

April 13th, 2003, 03:52 AM	#21
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	ok. i think i understand the xp/mp issue. so let's say i go with an athlon xp2200, i'm still a little confused as to what motherboard will work nicely and best fit my needs. i realize that i should select a known and respected brand name such as: asus, msi, gigabyte, etc. and that i should stay away from VIA chipsets. chris go suggested NVidia chipsets. any specific suggestions? the computer will be used for editing purposes and some sound recording. for personal use, no clients and so on. i imagine will be surfing the web now and again. not into gaming at all. running software: vegas 4, after effects, sound mixing software (not sure which yet). might want to run xpress dv in the future. not looking for the fastest system available, but not one that won't leave me far behind. most important that it is stable and powerful enough to for "realtime" features and so on. mb's i've come across so far, but don't know much about: ASUS A7N8XDEL NVIDIA NFORCE EPOX 8RDA MSI K7N2G-ILSR MSI K7N420 PRO NFORCE ABIT NF7 NFORCE 2 not much need for onboard features as i will have a seperate sound card, graphics card and firewire. any ideas, suggestion, comments? all are welcom. sorry about being so hesitant before buying. i just cant afford missing something and being stuck with hardware to be used as door stops. thanks

April 13th, 2003, 05:24 AM	#22
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Avoid Asus- if anything goes wrong, you'll never get support. If you want to go with Abit, first check out these two sites- http://www.sudhian.com/ http://forum.abit-usa.com/ Read up on the boards you might be looking at! I have the KG7 Raid, and think it is a very stable board. However, when I bought it, I wasn't aware that I would have to make changes to the soft menu to make it stable. I went through almost a year of lock ups until I found the answer. If possible, while shopping for componants, go to the manufacturer's support forum, and see what problems others have been facing. On a side note, I have heard good things about Soyo and Thunderbird. You might look into them as well.

April 13th, 2003, 05:22 PM	#23
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	That's a very good suggestion, getting familiar with the computer hardware forums, if only to post questions when you run into trouble. Many motherboards also have dedicated websites especially if they are unique in some regard like the Abit based one over at Sudhian. For specific models I can't think of any off the top of my head. I would start by doing research over at www.anandtech.com for reviews on boards with that sweet ratio between performance and price. There are other sites of course - perhaps some less advertiser inclined - but I think we're getting too involved if we get deeper than that. Here's a motherboard roundup of motherboards based on the nForce2 chipset: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1759 Shop at a reputable vendor as well. I like www.mwave.com. The retailer can often do the returns for you so you won't have to deal with the manufacturer directly. I know many people who've complained long after the return period and still gotten returns from good vendors. Check out www.resellerratings.com if in doubt. Hey Garret, totally agree with you. I haven't been able to have that kind of "fun" problem of late - my Tyan Tiger MP is against any deviation whatsoever, as vanilla in options as you can get (like no manipulating bus, etc). I'm salivating over dual Opterons...

April 14th, 2003, 05:21 PM	#25
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	thanks for all the replies. i'll look up some of the stuff listed here, do some more research and let you know what i finally decided on. thanks. adi.

April 14th, 2003, 06:10 PM	#26
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Adi- just something else to mull over: If you go with a turn-key system, you will have: 1) A warranty and support, which will help you from pulling out all of your hair. 2) A system that has been configured to work. Someone else has already pulled out thir hair, to insure it works for you. 3) A larger price tag than if you built it your self. 4 )A software bundle, which may actually have something useful. If you build it your self: 1) You will get to pull your hair out figuring out the little details. 2) No support, and no warranty, except MAYBE the seller/factory. A big maybe. 3) A smaller price tag. 4) Satisfaction in knowing the machine, because YOU built it. 5) Probably no software, except what you buy for it. Both of my machines were built using parts I selected. I know them fairly well, which comes in real handy because I have no support. I dropped almost $4,500 on this machine, but got exactly what I wanted.

April 21st, 2003, 03:32 PM	#27
Macauley Peterson New Boot Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ, USA Posts: 7	My 2 cents: I built an Athlon XP PC based on the MSI K7N420 board about a year ago and have been quite happy with it. Fairly stable under Win 2000. It took a significant investment of time to research, buy components, and construct/configure the machine before the "happiness" set in, however, and with little or no cost savings. If I had it to do over again, I would buy a turnkey solution. (Well, I just bought a Mac, but that's for another post). The nice thing about building your own, though is you can use the sweet Western Digital Special Edition drives with the 8 MB cache -- highly recommended, if that's an option. And don't skimp on RAM. I use a Gig.

April 21st, 2003, 04:04 PM	#28
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Macauley- I guess the real savings in a build-it-yourself PC, can be eaten up by shipping. Buying from a local wholesaler should shave at least a couple hundred. Should. Large scale manufacturers can buy componants by the truckload for far less than we can one-at-a-time. This way, their total cost in a PC is a tenth of what they sell it for. The biggest drawback to buying off the shelf, is getting what THEY want to put in it.