I need advice on a real time NLE system

[David Mintzer]

Let me simplify the comparison-----


Sound--Vegas by a long shot
Organization of Bins----Avid by a long shot----Vegas 4.0 will address this
Real Time Previews--as I said before, all work on Vegas--not on Avid--you have to render some of them
Stability-Equal
Price--Vegas
Transitions--Vegas has more--but I really dont care
Titling-Vegas by a long shot
Compositing--Vegas by a long shot although I use AE for my complex compositing
Portability to different systems---Vegas by a long shot--you can run it on practically anything with a 750mghz processor or better
Portability of projects to other Avid Systems--Avid of course


There you go----

You can also go to Sonic Foundrys site and see a feature by feature comparison---


I apologize if I offended anyone--I just get so damn tired of Avids ability to get people to think that if they dont have an Avid, (and dont pay Avid prices) somehow they aren't professional---Thats absurd.
Sorry if I over reacted---I am just so

[Mike Young]

<<<-- Originally posted by David Mintzer :
[Sound--Vegas by a long shot]

Without a doubt; I keep Vegas around for audio post processing.

[Organization of Bins----Avid by a long shot----Vegas 4.0 will address this]

In general, workflow and project management is missing. Bins, storyboarding, script based editing, multiple sequences, nested sequences. "Address this" has a lot of ground to cover.

[Real Time Previews--as I said before, all work on Vegas--not on Avid--you have to render some of them]

Vegas's drop frame realtime is about on par with Premiere 6.5 realtime.

[Titling-Vegas by a long shot]
[Compositing--Vegas by a long shot although I use AE for my complex compositing]

Both do a good, tasteful job on simple titles. AE is the only way to go for complex sequences, which leaves Avid out in the cold. Premiere, not surprisingly, integrates the best with AE (a significant understatement).

It wouldn't be fair to not mention Avid's color correction. Premiere's is simplistic and minimalist; Vegas is usable, but barely. Avid has software vector- and waveform scopes, eight in all; color patch and NaturalMatch hue matching; corrections in RGB and HSL space; gamma, gain, and setup on each of luma, chroma, and independent color channels; broadcast legal level clamping; and undoubtedly more that don't come to mind.

[Rick O'Brien]

Interesting topic,

I have never used Avid so I wont comment on it except to say it is overpriced.

I have Canopus Realtime system. Premiere
Vegas Video
AE
and a few other supporting software programs.

My vote would be for Vegas.
It is without a doubt the best NLE bargain out there.
The price will go up in the next version so buy it in the next month if it is your choice. Upgrades will be reasonable from 3.0 to 4.0.

Premiere has a long history of stability issues.
Vegas can be installed painlessly with a $20 US dollar OHCI firewire card.

I can work faster and more creatively in Vegas than I can in Premiere.
But that is just me.
Canopus had a chance to further develop their own NLE but dropped the ball and went to bed with Adobe.

I use Vegas most.
Good luck and enjoy.

My two cents,
Rick

[David Mintzer]

Yes, I forgot about Avid's superior color correction---one for Avid--
(never an issue for me because I shoot perfectly exposed video---and I do believe in Santa Claus)

[Jeff Donald]

Avid is a professional tool. If you have the skill to edit on Avids you can probably get a job anywhere in the country. Vegas Video won't get you that. It doesn't mean that VV is not a capable tool. It just won't get you the respect that being an Avid editor will, or the career possibilities. So, that in part is also what your paying for. Overpriced? Not hardly, because it offers you a skill set and a path that can lead to you being a professional editor.

I look back at the young editors that worked for me (and learned Avid editing) and see where they are today. They wouldn't be where they are if they had learned Premiere, Razor, VV etc. and that comes at a price.

If your a young person wanting to edit professionally, then learn Avid or Final Cut Pro. If you do and your good you'll have a career you love. What could be better than that?

Jeff

[Richard Alvarez]

"Drop Frame Realtime"... what exactly does that mean? I know that Avid supports full rate "real time" but gets around processing jams by running single field. You can also run out through a parahelia card... This is "realtime" on over a hundred effects, (each of them keyframeable) several layers.

Avid's titling tool is simplistic. Which is why Boris graffitti is included... so that's "part" of the purchase price, as was Comotion, Light Factory, DVDitSE, CleanerEZ, and several other apps that came bundled.(Boris RED is also included now in the powerpack)

But as long as were comparing How well does Vegas cut film? Can you take your files from Vegas directly to a pro suite like a symphony? Keep that in mind when complaining about Avid's "compatibility" with other low end systems, it's designed to be compatible with a "high end " system. Not everyone needs this compatibility... if you don't need it don't buy it.

Look, there are lots of "revues" out there in different magazines... all of them raves. Buy what you need, pay as little as you can to get it.

I needed Avids professionaly integrated color correction and compatability with high-end systems, as well as it's film cutting capabilities. I got a good deal on a system, and I am happy with it.

I am sure everyone else is happy with their systems... if not, they are free to purchase another.

[Richard Alvarez]

By the way, regarding portability, does Vegas run on Mac? Cause Avid includes a copy for Mac in it's purchase price.

Just a thought.

[Rick O'Brien]

The definition of a professional editor is one who gets paid.

If you have a 'working for someone else' mentality then what you are saying makes sense.

If you have an 'owner operator mentality' then what your saying is not as applicable.

I can think of a handful of editors that make a Heck of a lot more than an employee professional editor.

Unless you know what direction a person wishes to go in this business, riding the Avid name may or may not be helpful.

[Mike Young]

Bill: "Drop frame realtime" = drops frames in realtime to maintain realtime display performance. Vegas realtime preview does this; compared to Premiere's native non-realtime realtime. Clear as mud yet? :)

[David Mintzer]

I never intended this to become a "my NLE Is better then your NLE" thread--I was merely responding to the claim that Vegas is in someway not a professional NLE and that it isn't as stable as Avid. In fact, I would say that Vegas is more stable then Avid 3.5--(go to the Avid site and read some of the posts) although Avid 3.0- was extremely stable.

[Jeff Donald]

My nine year old son has been paid to edit video with iMovie. I don't think he has applied for his union card yet.

Your comments are very accurate. I can teach someone how to edit. But I can't teach someone how to be an entrepreneur. Not everyone has the ability or the desire to be self employed. So, if one has the desire and skills to be an editor, but not self employed, Avid is a much better skill set to present to an employer.

I don't make these comments lightly. I used to own a production company. I started it from scratch and grew it to 17 employees. I sold it. Today I freelance as an editor and cameraman. I have clients who pay me to edit. Funny thing is, no one has ever asked if I know how to edit on Vegas Video. Why is that?

Vegas video is popular with Mom and Pop video operations. It fits the budget, gets the job done and offers a lot of flash. It is a solid editor. But knowing how to edit on
Vegas Video won't get you anywhere. Being a successful entrepreneur will.

Jeff

[Rick O'Brien]

"My nine year old son has been paid to edit video with iMovie."

Cute story but I see no relevance to our conversation.

My nine year old son plays outside in the fresh air.
He gets paid for raking leaves.

It sounds like your saying if you don't use Avid your just a kid playing with toys.

I hope this is not the case.
Your talent reputation will get you respect. Your editing equipment is secondary. Most of my clients know Jack about editing equipment. Once in a while I'm asked if I use Avid. I then give a list of editing apps I use and the eyes glaze over and the subject ends returning to important issues like content, price and deadlines.

On long form documentary you are better off with Avid-maybe,
Film probably.

95% of DV work, Whatever NLE your comfortable with that has the features you need.

>"Vegas Video won't get you anywhere. Being a successful entrepreneur will".

I would say a combination of the two is essential.

I love Vegas, You love Avid.
Avid is a good one. In DV it is just one of many good ones.

I spent several hours at the NYC DV show testing, talking to Reps and watching it do most of it's tricks.

Nothing earth shattering.
FCP same thing, Nothing earth shattering.
Edition looks promising.
The good news is the competition makes them all better.

Who knows My next system could be an Avid but I wont be picking it because of the 'Brand'.

I have several NLE's at my disposal. Each has their strength and weakness.

I feel fortunate really.

[Mike Young]

<<<-- Originally posted by Rick O'Brien : Interesting topic,

I have never used Avid so I wont comment on it except to say it is overpriced.
Rick -->>>

Overpriced compared to what? A businessman and entrepreneur can make such a statement without qualification?

Your point on Premiere having a "long history of stability issues" is non sequitor. It has a long history. Vegas has a short history, including Vegas 2. I forget what it was called before that... care to remind me?

[Zac Stein]

Honestly, who cares!

Whatever floats your boat.....

zac

[Jeff Donald]

The point of my nine year old son getting paid is that he is not a professional. The IRS might think so, but not us. Just because you get paid doesn't make you a pro. Just because you edit with Avid (or VV3) doesn't make you a pro. I don't own an Avid anymore and I haven't been asked to edit on an Avid in 3 or 4 months. I am an Avid Certified editor and I've taught Avid editing.

The reason I dwell on this subject is the number of young people who read the posts here. I get e-mails from them fairly often asking for career advice. How do they get started is one of the most frequently asked questions. I advise them to look at four year colleges and two year trade schools to get the skills they need. What school (two or four year) teaches Vegas Video editing? I don't know of any. There are weekend seminars, but that's more for the established editor or advanced amateurs.

When I owned my production company every spring I would get hundreds of resumes and reels mailed to me. I always made a point of watching their reel and sending a response back. If they called and asked for an interview I would give it. I made it clear if I had an opening or not but suggested they interview anyway to get the experience.

When I had an opening I had a ready pool of talent to draw from. I hired the people with Avid experience in most cases. Why? They had gone to the better schools, used newer, better equipment, had more experience and their reels looked better. I also wouldn't have the expense of training them to edit on our Avids.

Things haven't changed much today. Pick up a trade publication and look at the help wanted. There are ads for Avid editors and FCP editors, but not VV3. Go over to 2-pop and look at the job listings. There are ads for Avid editors and FCP editors but not VV3. The jobs in private industry, TV, even government are for Avid and FCP editors.

This doesn't mean that VV3 is not a good editing package or that great, award winning productions can't be cut on it. It's just not where the jobs are and that needs to be considered by people when they set out to learn a skill set.

Jeff