Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast at DVinfo.net

Kris Koster · May 10th, 2011, 05:11 AM

It's time I sorted this issue out once and for all.

Fact is, that I've never been happy with looking at my production work on my TV set. However, what looks perfectly nice after uploading to Vimeo or YouTube, never seems to translate well to my 42" plasma TV.

What I'm seeing is a high-contrasted image on my TV compared to what I've output after colour correction on my HP w24 flat LCD screen. The blacks and other colours look a little 'washed out' (on the TV) ...

I've tried to follow some previous threads on callibration using SMPTE color bars, etc. but I'm none the wiser after reading them. I'm outputting for broadcast in PAL countries, mainly (if that makes any difference).

I know I'm never going to get it perfect working NLE on an LCD computer monitor, but I'd like to adjust it so that I can get as close as damn it, plus work out which is more "correct," my TV or LCD monitor.

To test if the TV is right, Is it as simple as outputting a colour pattern to my TV and adusting the settings such that they match?

Allen Vodi · May 10th, 2011, 06:56 PM

I use a 24" Dell LCD monitor to edit HD video on a PC, usually AVCHD clips. My target is always plasma screens due to their ability to better render the full colour spectrum and black levels. My problem has been opposite to yours: the footage never looks as crisp and full coloured on the PC monitor as on the plasma screens (LG and Samsung). As a consequence I`ve never had the need to colour correct any of my edits.

Sareesh Sudhakaran · May 10th, 2011, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris Koster

It's time I sorted this issue out once and for all.

However, what looks perfectly nice after uploading to Vimeo or YouTube, never seems to translate well to my 42" plasma TV.

I've graded for HDTV/PAL (they are close) and the issue might not be your workflow, but your television. Have you tried it on other consumer grade plasma/LCD screens (not computer LCD screens)?

Is your target color space PAL or HDTV (Rec.609)?

Bruce Watson · May 11th, 2011, 01:11 PM

Oops. Duplicate.

Bruce Watson · May 11th, 2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran

Is your target color space PAL or HDTV (Rec.609)?

NTSC HDTVs use the Rec. 709 color space. NTSC SD is in Rec. 601. Sadly, I have no idea what color space PAL TVs use.

The OP's problem is likely editing in the wrong colorspace. A computer monitor uses a different color space than an HDTV. To get consistent results, one should use a monitor that supports the color space of the target. That is, if your target is the web, use a calibrated computer monitor. If your target is HDTV, use a calibrated production monitor or calibrated HDTV.

Kris Koster · May 15th, 2011, 03:59 AM

Thanks Bruce and others -

Herein lies the source of the problem, I think.

These days, the music labels output the final master to TV networks and promote online also. I've already been told that's what they do with my clips.

I've done a lot of testing and what I've found it, that if I output my final master using one colour space, it looks perfect on my computer LCD screen, but too washed out on my plasma TV (or other TV) - Yet if I adjust for this so that it looks perfect on the TV, it looks too dark on the computer LCD monitor.

I've tried using a SMPTE colour pattern to make adjustment, but you can't adjust for colour on the DVI input colour monitors, only brightness and contrast.

I think this is a bit beyond me, technically. Perhaps I'm being a little too nitpicky, but I hate it when I can see other promo clips on the television that look colour graded correct and I see mine as being a little too washed out for my liking.

I completely understand that the large production houses have the budget to employ people whose job is purely colour grading, tinting and colour correction for broadcast, and really that's probably the next stage for me. However I wish there were a definitive guide somewhere that I could follow to getting it as near as damn it for the moment. (Perhaps I need to employ a good colourist, know any?)

Here's the clip I'm referring to as an example, by the way, in case anyone wants to see what I'm talking about. This is as close as I can get it, but I'm still not happy with it.

Bruce Watson · May 15th, 2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris Koster

I've done a lot of testing and what I've found it, that if I output my final master using one colour space, it looks perfect on my computer LCD screen, but too washed out on my plasma TV (or other TV) - Yet if I adjust for this so that it looks perfect on the TV, it looks too dark on the computer LCD monitor.

This is, unfortunately, normal. The color spaces are different, and so they look different. The answer is two masters -- one for HDTV, one for Internet. I don't know any other way around this problem.

Steve Kalle · May 25th, 2011, 09:23 PM

Can you explain what devices and how they are connected to your LCDs and Plasma?

Have you calibrated your LCD with an actual calibration device? Have you had your Plasma professionally calibrated?

First off, calibrating with Bars is for field production, not post production. For post, you need your monitors calibrated to the color space of the destination format. For HD, its Rec 709. I think it is EBU 3213 for PAL.

If you want your plasma and LCD to look the same, that costs a lot of $$$ for high quality profiling software.

Another issue could be that you are sending a RGB signal to your plasma when the actual video is YUV.

May 10th, 2011, 05:11 AM	#1
Kris Koster Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gatwick, UK Posts: 185	Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast It's time I sorted this issue out once and for all. Fact is, that I've never been happy with looking at my production work on my TV set. However, what looks perfectly nice after uploading to Vimeo or YouTube, never seems to translate well to my 42" plasma TV. What I'm seeing is a high-contrasted image on my TV compared to what I've output after colour correction on my HP w24 flat LCD screen. The blacks and other colours look a little 'washed out' (on the TV) ... I've tried to follow some previous threads on callibration using SMPTE color bars, etc. but I'm none the wiser after reading them. I'm outputting for broadcast in PAL countries, mainly (if that makes any difference). I know I'm never going to get it perfect working NLE on an LCD computer monitor, but I'd like to adjust it so that I can get as close as damn it, plus work out which is more "correct," my TV or LCD monitor. To test if the TV is right, Is it as simple as outputting a colour pattern to my TV and adusting the settings such that they match? __________________ http://kriskoster.com

May 10th, 2011, 06:56 PM	#2
Allen Vodi Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	Re: Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast I use a 24" Dell LCD monitor to edit HD video on a PC, usually AVCHD clips. My target is always plasma screens due to their ability to better render the full colour spectrum and black levels. My problem has been opposite to yours: the footage never looks as crisp and full coloured on the PC monitor as on the plasma screens (LG and Samsung). As a consequence I`ve never had the need to colour correct any of my edits.

May 11th, 2011, 01:11 PM	#4
Bruce Watson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC, USA Posts: 710	Re: Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast Oops. Duplicate. Last edited by Bruce Watson; May 11th, 2011 at 01:15 PM. Reason: duplicate

May 15th, 2011, 03:59 AM	#6
Kris Koster Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gatwick, UK Posts: 185	Re: Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast Thanks Bruce and others - Herein lies the source of the problem, I think. These days, the music labels output the final master to TV networks and promote online also. I've already been told that's what they do with my clips. I've done a lot of testing and what I've found it, that if I output my final master using one colour space, it looks perfect on my computer LCD screen, but too washed out on my plasma TV (or other TV) - Yet if I adjust for this so that it looks perfect on the TV, it looks too dark on the computer LCD monitor. I've tried using a SMPTE colour pattern to make adjustment, but you can't adjust for colour on the DVI input colour monitors, only brightness and contrast. I think this is a bit beyond me, technically. Perhaps I'm being a little too nitpicky, but I hate it when I can see other promo clips on the television that look colour graded correct and I see mine as being a little too washed out for my liking. I completely understand that the large production houses have the budget to employ people whose job is purely colour grading, tinting and colour correction for broadcast, and really that's probably the next stage for me. However I wish there were a definitive guide somewhere that I could follow to getting it as near as damn it for the moment. (Perhaps I need to employ a good colourist, know any?) Here's the clip I'm referring to as an example, by the way, in case anyone wants to see what I'm talking about. This is as close as I can get it, but I'm still not happy with it. Molella & Supafly Inc. 'X-Rated' - (Molella & Jerma Mix) Final Master on Vimeo __________________ http://kriskoster.com

May 25th, 2011, 09:23 PM	#8
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Re: Is it the monitor or the TV? Grading and colour correction for broadcast Can you explain what devices and how they are connected to your LCDs and Plasma? Have you calibrated your LCD with an actual calibration device? Have you had your Plasma professionally calibrated? First off, calibrating with Bars is for field production, not post production. For post, you need your monitors calibrated to the color space of the destination format. For HD, its Rec 709. I think it is EBU 3213 for PAL. If you want your plasma and LCD to look the same, that costs a lot of $$$ for high quality profiling software. Another issue could be that you are sending a RGB signal to your plasma when the actual video is YUV.