Premiere pro CS3 vs CS5 is it worth the trouble?

[Adam Gold]

I actually do it exactly the way Jay describes it as well. For the occasional cutaway, this method works fine. But if you wanted the real time live cutting feeling, I suppose you'd just sync up cams 5 and 6 with your first multicam pass, then drag that to a new sequence and repeat the process, using cams 5 and 6 (presumably on tracks 2 and 3) as necessary.

[John Gerard]

Hi,
I actually have the Dell 490 not the 390 as I said in my original note. I am about to install Windows 7 on a new 500 GB HDD. So if the install does not work I can pop back in my current drive with Windows XP and be back in business. HDDs are cheep. I like to do it this way better that trying to do the dual boot way because if Windows 7 works then I have no need to go back and forth with XP. I talked to Dell and they think I should have no major problems. I also am going to get the nvidia GTX 470 CUDA graphics card and CS5. Probably a 16GB RAM upgrade. I think CS5 is going to be worth the upgrade for me just for the CUDA support if nothing else. Rendering the timeline is taking forever to complete about 8-12 hours to complete yes that correct. My CPU a dual core 3GHz. Xeon version runs at 100% usage during rendering. I have been told that with a 470 card I will not need to render the sequences any more. That will be a welcome site. :-)

John Gerard

[Jay West]

Some suggestions and comments.

1. Not sure if you are adding 16gb to your existing RAM or going to a total of 16 gb. I think I read somewhere that Windows 7 and CS5 may encounter slowdowns with certain RAM configurations which were, maybe, 8, 16 gb and 20 gb of RAM. 12 and 24 may be the preferable configurations. I believe I ran across it in DVinfo's Adobe forum and that there was some discussion of testing of this by Harm Milaard and Randall Leong. I don't have time to search for the thread right now, but will try later if nobody else does chimes in.

2. Not every rendering task is avoided with MPE/CUDA under CS5. Some things still require rendering. When you look in the effects panel, the MPE effects are marked so you can tell which ones are which. For instance, some dissolves and some color correction effects are marked as MPE but others are not. The playback is pretty good, regardless.

3. I also kept my XP disk and got a new disk for Win 7. I have a big enough case that I kept the XP disk in the system. When I've needed something under XP, I just change the boot selection in the BIOS. You could do a dual boot but I found that I wanted to boot to XP so infrequently that I dispensed with that complication.

[Mike McCarthy]

As far as RAM goes, there are limitations about certain configs working better, but it has nothing to do with Win7. 5500 based Xeons (Nehalem Based) and newer use triple channel RAM, while 5400 series Xeons (Core2 based) use Dual chanel RAM. That is channels per CPU, so with dual sockets it becomes 6 channel vs 4 channel.

In order to utilize all of the channels in dual proc workstations, RAM sticks should be installed in sets of 4 or 6. The Precision 490 is Core2 based, so you want sets of 4 sticks. This gives you the options of 8GB (4x2GB) 16GB (4x4GB) 24GB (4x4GB+4x2GB) 32GB (8x4GB or 4x8GB) and any other config you can create wth sets of 4. With a newer Nehalem based system, you need to install sets of 6, giving you the options of 12GB (6x2GB) 24GB (6x4GB) 36GB (6x4GB+6x2GB) 48GB (6x8GB or 12x4GB) etc. If you use a different number of sticks, the system will revert back to single channel failover mode, cutting your memory bandwidth by 33 or 50%.

(Apple was selling Nehalem based MacPros with 16GB as a default option, which cut memory bandwidth by 33% compared to 12GB. So the lower amount of RAM would give better performance.)

[John Gerard]

Good info. Thanks for the comments. I realized that I already had 4 1GB RAM chips. I was going for 4 4GB chips until I realized duh... that I could use the 4GB I already have. My Dell has 8 RAM slots. So I ordered from Dell just 2 4GB chips for a total of 12GB saving me about $300USD and see how that goes. It is strange that some memory configurations don't work well. As for upgrading to Win 7 64bit.I installed Win7 on a separate HD the WD Carver Black. I changed out all my drives to WD Black drives. One 500GB system/program and 2 640GB RAID 0 drives. I formatted the RAID 0 drive 16k cluster size, it could have been 8k size. This allows the drive to work faster since there are less clusters to read but you do lose a little bit of Hdd space in the process. Also the Black drives are some of the fastest drives out. I have an esata Adaptec card and an external HDD case so I can still get stuff off my Win XP drive if I need to without consuming internal power and/or taking up the extra room. I got a case where I can just plug in and out drives without having to physically remove the case top,etc.
I just received cs5 and Photoshop cs5 extended. This is my next upgrade to perform. The RAM has not come yet maybe later today. I got $50 off by ordering through the adobe store and they gave me a discount on shipping. I got it in 1-2 days.
The one glitch is getting the Adptec esata card driver to install under Win7. Win7 will only allow you to install certified signed drivers without a complicated work around. And my Dell needs a new pws. I might be able to upgrade the pws according to Dell but I will have to wait and see. Just by reinstalling the OS and upgrading to Win7 64 plus new HDDs my computer seems really fast already. I am just about to start on another project so I will see how it goes.

John Gerard

Originally Posted by Jay West

Some suggestions and comments.

1. Not sure if you are adding 16gb to your existing RAM or going to a total of 16 gb. I think I read somewhere that Windows 7 and CS5 may encounter slowdowns with certain RAM configurations which were, maybe, 8, 16 gb and 20 gb of RAM. 12 and 24 may be the preferable configurations. I believe I ran across it in DVinfo's Adobe forum and that there was some discussion of testing of this by Harm Milaard and Randall Leong. I don't have time to search for the thread right now, but will try later if nobody else does chimes in.

2. Not every rendering task is avoided with MPE/CUDA under CS5. Some things still require rendering. When you look in the effects panel, the MPE effects are marked so you can tell which ones are which. For instance, some dissolves and some color correction effects are marked as MPE but others are not. The playback is pretty good, regardless.

3. I also kept my XP disk and got a new disk for Win 7. I have a big enough case that I kept the XP disk in the system. When I've needed something under XP, I just change the boot selection in the BIOS. You could do a dual boot but I found that I wanted to boot to XP so infrequently that I dispensed with that complication.

[John Gerard]

Hi,
I am getting closer and closer in getting my computer upgraded to CS5 and CUDA. I installed Windows 7 and Premiere Pro CS5 and Photoshop CS5 extended. I download and installed one codec pack for Windows 7 but that did not correct the problem described below....
The problem is as follows.....
I captured a file through the black magic capture card in Premiere Pro CS3. I assume the file is in the AVI format. Windows 7 64bit will not play the file. All that plays is the audio. Windows 7, I think, thinks the file is an audio only file. At 104GB in size I believe all video data is still there. I then installed a windows 7 codec pack and now I see video 1 frame that is all. The video still does not play. In CS5 the file is only imported as audio only and CS5 think the file is also audio only. I am thinking all that is wrong is that I do not have the correct codec installed. Any help in getting the right codecs will be greatly appreciated.
For those that are running Windows 7 64bit have you figured out the Windows 7 problem where a USB HDD is not recognized correctly in Windows My Computer. An USB HDD on my computer will show up and even has a drive letter assigned to it but Windows says that I need to format the drive. I tried a thumb drive and that works great.

[Tim Kolb]

For a BlackMagic file, you may have a BlackMagic proprietary codec. For CS5, you'lll need the 64 bit version of that codec.

Caution: Adobe does not endorse the installation of any aftermarket codecs like k lite or similar...they are potential problems waiting to happen.

[Mike McCarthy]

You need to install one of the Blackmagic driver and software packages. You don't need the hardware for the installer towork, and it gives you access to the Blackmagic file formats. I install the Multibridge drivers on most all of my systems, even if they don't have the hardware, specifically for the file format support. You can download all the software from their site for free.

A far as RAM goes, adding 2 4GB sticks will increase your memory capacity, but will cut the bandwidth (speed) in half, as your computer reverts to 2 channel mode. Not the end of world, but not ideal by any means. The extra 2 4GB sticks to bring the total to 4 should be well worth the upgrade, more so than the first two, even if you never actually use the full 20GB. You could have instead bought 4x 2GB sticks to add to your 4x 1GB sticks to give you a total of 12GB, without lowering the bandwidth.

[Vincent Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jay West

3. I also kept my XP disk and got a new disk for Win 7. I have a big enough case that I kept the XP disk in the system. When I've needed something under XP, I just change the boot selection in the BIOS. You could do a dual boot but I found that I wanted to boot to XP so infrequently that I dispensed with that complication.

I have a quad boot system, XP, Vista, Win 7 32 and Win 7 64 bit. When I boot up it asks me which OS I want to use and I just select the OS I want to work with. By default I have Vista selected and this will launch automatically after 20 seconds, unless I select another option.

To set this up, right click on Computer and select Properties, in the next window select Advanced System settings, then select Startup and recovery and now select your Default OS. You can also alter the time delay before your default OS kicks in, I have it set to 20 seconds.

No need to dive into the BIOS each time you want to change OS.

ps. I keep the four systems going because I have applications that work better under XP or Vista etc. and I also review software amongst other things. I use Win 7 - 64 bit for video editing and do not have any anti virus software on that OS, just to keep it running smoothly.

[John Gerard]

Hi all again,

I appreciate all the info, advice, etc. I got my replacement pws installed yesterday I had a Dell tech come out to my house to replace it. My Dell is 3.5 years old. This is the main reason one goes with a Dell. I got the EVGA GTX 470 CUDA card installed and installed all the latest drivers. Everything is running very well. My computer at the moment is very quite. I added 2 additional case fans in the direction blowing air out of the case. So now I have 5 case fans 2 on the front. 1 that points down at the memory. 2 that draw air out of the case, and 1 heat sink HDD fan unit with 2 fans that I connected to my third HDD.
I have run my computer for a total of 2-3 hours now with the CUDA card installed and my system is still very quite. I ran the benchmark test stress test program from EVGA for about 6 minutes and the temperature did not go up very fast maybe in the area of 1 degree every couple of seconds or so. I think the top reading was about 81 degrees C. This is after I over clocked the card just a little. At first I had gotten the EVGA OC card then people that I talked to thought I was pushing the thermal limits of the Dell so I decided to exchange it for the non OC clocked card. I thought that it may run a little cooler. I played around with CS5 before I installed the 5.0.2 update by adding a brightness filter and a color correction filter. This is what ground my computer to a halt in CS3. when I hit play. Play back was slightly jerky for about 1-3 seconds and then smooth as silk playback. This is without CUDA being activated yet. A 1000% improvement over my previous setup.
Installing the Blackmagic drivers fixed the AVI playback problem. I did have to remove my Intensity Pro card. I don't use it that much anyway. I have a Canopus 110 external unit that I can try using when I need to convert from an analog source.
I have not upgraded RAM yet, I received 2 x 4GB RAM chips from Dell. Then I found out that Dell recommend using 4 chips at a time. 4x 2GB chips instead of 2 x 4GB chips. There are four memory channels on my board. So I have to decide whether to return the ram or get 2 more 4GB chips. I here that 20GB is not a good configuration. I could just use 16GB or just go with 12. It is another $260 in cost difference if I don't really need it?

John Gerard

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

You need to install one of the Blackmagic driver and software packages. You don't need the hardware for the installer towork, and it gives you access to the Blackmagic file formats. I install the Multibridge drivers on most all of my systems, even if they don't have the hardware, specifically for the file format support. You can download all the software from their site for free.

A far as RAM goes, adding 2 4GB sticks will increase your memory capacity, but will cut the bandwidth (speed) in half, as your computer reverts to 2 channel mode. Not the end of world, but not ideal by any means. The extra 2 4GB sticks to bring the total to 4 should be well worth the upgrade, more so than the first two, even if you never actually use the full 20GB. You could have instead bought 4x 2GB sticks to add to your 4x 1GB sticks to give you a total of 12GB, without lowering the bandwidth.

[Mike McCarthy]

20GB is a fine option if configured properly with sets of 4 stick. So 4x1GB plus 4x4GB should give you optimal performance, as would 4x1GB plus 4x2GB for 12GB total. (Don't be confused by the fact that Nehalem systems have totally different requirements for optimal performance, those limitations don't apply to your system.)

[John Gerard]

Hi Mike,
I am thinking of getting another 2 x 4GB RAM. So will that configuration work for PP CS5?
My other question is regarding using 16GB vs 20GB RAM. Jay thought that PP CS5 would have a problem with that configuration. If so, then I will only use the new RAM and take out the 1GB chips.

Thanks,
John Gerard

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

As far as RAM goes, there are limitations about certain configs working better, but it has nothing to do with Win7. 5500 based Xeons (Nehalem Based) and newer use triple channel RAM, while 5400 series Xeons (Core2 based) use Dual chanel RAM. That is channels per CPU, so with dual sockets it becomes 6 channel vs 4 channel.

In order to utilize all of the channels in dual proc workstations, RAM sticks should be installed in sets of 4 or 6. The Precision 490 is Core2 based, so you want sets of 4 sticks. This gives you the options of 8GB (4x2GB) 16GB (4x4GB) 24GB (4x4GB+4x2GB) 32GB (8x4GB or 4x8GB) and any other config you can create wth sets of 4. With a newer Nehalem based system, you need to install sets of 6, giving you the options of 12GB (6x2GB) 24GB (6x4GB) 36GB (6x4GB+6x2GB) 48GB (6x8GB or 12x4GB) etc. If you use a different number of sticks, the system will revert back to single channel failover mode, cutting your memory bandwidth by 33 or 50%.

(Apple was selling Nehalem based MacPros with 16GB as a default option, which cut memory bandwidth by 33% compared to 12GB. So the lower amount of RAM would give better performance.)

[John Gerard]

Thanks Mike, I am then going to use the 2 x 4GB now and get 2 more chips. I didn't know that he was talking about a specific system. Dell also does recommend using either 4 or 8 memory slots.

John Gerard

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

20GB is a fine option if configured properly with sets of 4 stick. So 4x1GB plus 4x4GB should give you optimal performance, as would 4x1GB plus 4x2GB for 12GB total. (Don't be confused by the fact that Nehalem systems have totally different requirements for optimal performance, those limitations don't apply to your system.)

[Tom Blizzard]

Wow. Thanks Jay..... I needed that! So very helpful. You seem to have answered all my questions too.
I'm saving your comments for future use. See next post........

BTW I'm using CS4 and I've had some lip sync problems with HDV...... Do you know if CS5 does a better job than CS4? or should i just go ahead and use Split??

[Tom Blizzard]

Great infromation here:

Originally Posted by Jay West

I second what Tim said above about running CS3 under Win 7 (or Vista 64). I add the following six comments to the intervening discussion.

1. First, for Ron Little and John Gerard and your "crashing" problems: have you tried cleaning the media cache database? An overfull, unattended media cache database can produce those symptoms. In CS4 and CS5, you click on Edit -->Preferences-->Media and then click "clean" next to the second item down. It has been a couple of years since I last used CS3, so I do not recall the exact keystrokes (and I can't find my CS3 manual) but I believe the process was similar.

Also, for Ron, if you are working with AVCHD when you are getting crashes, you might want to try an Adobe CS5 "AVCHD" sequence preset to see if the crashing issues persist.

2. Second: for John: before moving from Win XP to Win 7, check to be sure that there will not be any hidden hardware gotchas before getting and installing Win 7. Dell systems have a reputation for being finicky about this so you want to run the Microsoft Windows Upgrade Advisor. (Google it to find the free MS download site).

3. Also for John: as for whether it is worthwhile upgrading from CS3 to CS5, it ultimately depends a lot on what you edit and what you edit for. In addition to what Tim pointed out, I'll offer a few more specific things to consider.

Are you working mainly with SD video or are you mainly working with HD formats? If SD, stay with CS3. If you are using mostly HD video, I can say that. CS5 has been a very good thing for me. I do mostly mutli-cam editing with HDV and AVCHD, and also (like Tim) I happily use a Matrox Mini for an external display . I have found CS5 much preferable to CS3. While I've had to figure out some quirks and work-arounds, working with HD under CS5 has been as easy for me as working with SD under CS3. (Come to think of it, there were quirks and work-arounds there, too.)

If using HDV, do you use a third party capture utility like HDVSplit or Cineform's HDLink? These cure the audio synch problems that some CS3 users -- myself included --- had when using PPro CS3's own capture utility; a problem that has gone away with CS5.

Do you need to work with mixed formats, such as SD and HDV and/or AVCHD in the same timeline If you got Cineform's Neoscene or NeoHD, you can convert everything to run under CS3. CS5 does not need necessarily the conversions (though there are be other reasons to use Cineform.)

Do you need/want the ability to make Blu-ray disks with menus. Encore CS5 does this, CS3 does not, If you are not burning BD, you don't care.

How much multi-cam and multi-track editing editing do you do and how much do you work with layers of effects? The more of this you do, the more you may want to consider CS5.

Can you add a Cuda capable video card to your system? This not absolutely necessary. Some folks find software MPE sufficient for their needs. This is subjective, though.

Do you need to edit LPCM audio with your video? CS5 does this, CS3 does not (although NeoHD will now ingest it.) If you do not have a Sony NX5 or somewhat specialized audio recording equipment you do not care about this.

There was discussion above about using an external editing display for HD editing with a Matrox Mini. You need CS4/5 to run the Mini. Since you are holding off on upgrading your computer hardware, I'd guess that you do not care about this.

4. Be aware that perceptions of suitability are subjective. For example, I think your system specs are a bit underpowered for CS5. While I'm not sure that 8 mb of RAM and a dual core processor is enough, there are numbers of forum members who have reported happily using CS5 to edit on laptops with lesser capabilities than your current system.

5. If you want to add to your RAM and going to Win 7, consider getting a separate hard drive for this if there is room in your Dell case for one. From experience with my own and several other folks upgrading to Win 7, I can tell you it is far easier to do a clean install on a new hard drive. You still have you XP drive available if and when something does not work under Win 7. There is something to watch out for here, though. You probably know that you can install your copy of CS3 (or CS5) on two computers (as long as they are not used at the same time, Adobe treats installations under different operating systems as separate computers.) So, if you've got CS3 on the laptop you mentioned, you probably want to deactivate it before trying out CS3 under Win 7 on your main system.

6. Finally, the easiest way to deal with the internet is to just unplug the ethernet cord from your editing system. You only plug it in when you need to update.