Is it worth switching? Sony --> Adobe at DVinfo.net

Matt Brabender · July 18th, 2005, 05:05 PM

Hi all
I know you hate these questions but ... I'll ask anyway.
I'm running the Sony series software (Vegas, Architect, Sound Forge) but am considering switching to the Adobe series (premiere pro etc.. - I have audition) for 2 reasons:
After Effects and I have a canopus DVStorm card.

I have no trouble learning software packages so that's not an issue, but I don't want to make the effort if it's pointless.

I hear so many great things about after effects and it seems to run hand in hand with premiere pro.
I also understand that my canopus card (purchased for analogue capture) can be used to render in real time (as it does with the canopus software) and that the quality of the encoder is better than main concept (mpeg2).
Why did I choose Sony? because of the rumours of instability with premiere

Could I please ask for some passing thoughts that you may have about all of this?
:)

David Jimerson · July 18th, 2005, 05:57 PM

What are you planning to do with it?

Matt Brabender · July 18th, 2005, 06:23 PM

I do mostly doco's, but am doing some short films and some tv promo's and maybe even the odd tv program, so I need to be able to do most things

and I work on it all day

David Jimerson · July 18th, 2005, 06:24 PM

Are you by chance using 24p? (Seems like you might be, if you're doing that kind of thing.) If so, I'd stick with Vegas.

Matt Brabender · July 18th, 2005, 06:41 PM

Most of the stuff is PAL 25fps interlaced, there will be some HDV footage coming and possibly a project with 24p too.

Does Vegas deal with progressive footage better?

David Jimerson · July 18th, 2005, 06:43 PM

It most assuredly handles 24p better than any.

Edward Troxel · July 18th, 2005, 08:33 PM

Remember that you can also transfer footage back and forth between Vegas and AE so if the reason is simply to use AE on some of the footage, you still can.

Matt Brabender · July 18th, 2005, 09:59 PM

ah ok ... I did not know that
does it do it without quality loss or any major issues?

Eniola Akintoye · July 21st, 2005, 09:09 AM

Matt,
I absolute feel you on this one.
Vegas was the first software I started using and it looks a lot simplier to me than Premier Pro. I was able to do a lot of stuffs the first day, but with PP.... hmmmmmm nah!.

I just downloaded the trial version of PP 1.5 and looking at it, it seems I will have to spend 2 weeks learning it but looking at the message boards on Non Liner editing, Vegas has a lot of feedbacks than any other softwares.

You are also right, I actually thought of transfering to PP because of AE but since I read this column and Edward stated that you can go back and forth,
then I guess I will stick with my Vegas.

Ok, next step, how can you link Vegas edited footage to AE, I have never used any of the Adobe products before, even Photoshop.

So can someone please give me links or ways on how to link footage I edited on Vegas in case I want to add more Special Effects I created using AE?

Christopher Lefchik · July 21st, 2005, 10:39 AM

As far as I know the only way to transfer footage back and forth from Vegas to After Effects is to render your footage out of each application and then import it into the other. On the other hand, Premiere Pro and After Effects can past clips back and forth between each application while they are running, or After Effects can import entire Premiere Pro projects with edits preserved. (Once you have added effects in AE you will still have to render out to a movie file to import back into Premiere Pro.) Personally, I have found the ability of AE to import Premiere projects to be a very helpful feature for me.

Eniola Akintoye · July 21st, 2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik

As far as I know the only way to transfer footage back and forth from Vegas to After Effects is to render your footage out of each application and then import it into the other. On the other hand, Premiere Pro and After Effects can past clips back and forth between each application while they are running, or After Effects can import entire Premiere Pro projects with edits preserved. (Once you have added effects in AE you will still have to render out to a movie file to import back into Premiere Pro.) Personally, I have found the ability of AE to import Premiere projects to be a very helpful feature for me.

That will suck big time you know.
Because, it seems you are saying I will have to wait a long time (since rendering takes forever) before I move it to another application and do the same again.

Is there a short cut or I am just messing something here?

I mean, I thought once you render a footage/clip, it will be difficult to make modifications to it again.

David Jimerson · July 21st, 2005, 04:33 PM

You're not missing anything -- it's what you have to do to switch between Vegas and AE.

If being able to open project files in AE is your paramount concern, then PP is the only editor for you.

Matt Brabender · July 21st, 2005, 04:45 PM

yeah that is a big issue
I'm trying out discreet combustion 4 at the moment as from what I have read, it functions the same as after effects but is more powerful (I guess that's probably arguable) but the fract still remains that a render is needed to import footage.
So I guess I'll see how impractical/practical it is to have an editor and compositor that do not function together like PP and AE.

Eniola, thankyou, it is nice to find somebody else who is thinking about this issue. Like you, I find Vegas very easy to use, and powerful enough as an editor, but after using it for a while, you tend to recognise where the line is drawn between NLE's and compositors.

So, I'll let you know what it is like using combustion with vegas and the up's and down's of the extra renders and possible work arounds, but I'm still, like you, thinking of switching over to adobe.

Matt Brabender · July 21st, 2005, 05:03 PM

does anyone know if 'frameserving' will get around this issue?
something like this : http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/

I'm not up to speed on this subject, but it appears you can use this 'frameserver' to transfer from your NLE of choice to whatever program you want, such as After Effects or Combustion.
If that is true, then I guess you can use a different encoder (such as procoder) in place of main concept.

Does all the information in the edit get transfered such as fades, dissolves, titles, chapter markers etc...?

Can anyone shed some light on this subject? (sorry, I'm fairly new to this game)

Pete Bauer · July 21st, 2005, 05:51 PM

Matt,

Vegas and PPro are direct competitor NLE's, and if it was simply a question of those two programs head-to-head, I wouldn't have much to say. I use Adobe and am overall quite happy with it. Yet, I don't doubt at all that there are things that Vegas does faster, easier and/or better than PPro.

But thowing AE into the mix changes the whole equation. It is a very sophisticated (and complicated) compositing program that will give you capabilities no pure NLE will touch. With the whole integrated Adobe Video Collection Pro package, you pay more and you get more. Without having used the Sony suite, I just SUSPECT the it can't match the features of the AVC Pro. People also often ask whether the PRO version of AE or the Collection is worth the extra cost; my opinion is definitely yes -- the motion tracking alone has been worth it for me.

Back to PPro. There is a strobing bug in PPro's handling of certain 100+IRE 24p footage for which there IS a work-around (and I HOPE will be fully resolved in the next release). And probably a few other bugs, too...as does Vegas. I have found the current version of PPro to be quite stable on my system and a real improvement over earlier versions.

Also remember that you can download trial versions of all the software for free. After all, despite all the good opinions and ideas here, your own opinion is going to the best one for you!

July 18th, 2005, 05:05 PM	#1
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	Is it worth switching? Sony --> Adobe Hi all I know you hate these questions but ... I'll ask anyway. I'm running the Sony series software (Vegas, Architect, Sound Forge) but am considering switching to the Adobe series (premiere pro etc.. - I have audition) for 2 reasons: After Effects and I have a canopus DVStorm card. I have no trouble learning software packages so that's not an issue, but I don't want to make the effort if it's pointless. I hear so many great things about after effects and it seems to run hand in hand with premiere pro. I also understand that my canopus card (purchased for analogue capture) can be used to render in real time (as it does with the canopus software) and that the quality of the encoder is better than main concept (mpeg2). Why did I choose Sony? because of the rumours of instability with premiere Could I please ask for some passing thoughts that you may have about all of this? :)

July 18th, 2005, 05:57 PM	#2
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	What are you planning to do with it? __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

July 18th, 2005, 06:24 PM	#4
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Are you by chance using 24p? (Seems like you might be, if you're doing that kind of thing.) If so, I'd stick with Vegas. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

July 18th, 2005, 06:43 PM	#6
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	It most assuredly handles 24p better than any. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

July 18th, 2005, 08:33 PM	#7
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Remember that you can also transfer footage back and forth between Vegas and AE so if the reason is simply to use AE on some of the footage, you still can. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

July 18th, 2005, 06:23 PM	#3
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	I do mostly doco's, but am doing some short films and some tv promo's and maybe even the odd tv program, so I need to be able to do most things and I work on it all day

July 18th, 2005, 06:41 PM	#5
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	Most of the stuff is PAL 25fps interlaced, there will be some HDV footage coming and possibly a project with 24p too. Does Vegas deal with progressive footage better?

July 18th, 2005, 09:59 PM	#8
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	ah ok ... I did not know that does it do it without quality loss or any major issues?

July 21st, 2005, 09:09 AM	#9
Eniola Akintoye Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Duluth GA Posts: 238	Matt, I absolute feel you on this one. Vegas was the first software I started using and it looks a lot simplier to me than Premier Pro. I was able to do a lot of stuffs the first day, but with PP.... hmmmmmm nah!. I just downloaded the trial version of PP 1.5 and looking at it, it seems I will have to spend 2 weeks learning it but looking at the message boards on Non Liner editing, Vegas has a lot of feedbacks than any other softwares. You are also right, I actually thought of transfering to PP because of AE but since I read this column and Edward stated that you can go back and forth, then I guess I will stick with my Vegas. Ok, next step, how can you link Vegas edited footage to AE, I have never used any of the Adobe products before, even Photoshop. So can someone please give me links or ways on how to link footage I edited on Vegas in case I want to add more Special Effects I created using AE?

July 21st, 2005, 10:39 AM	#10
Christopher Lefchik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: US Posts: 1,152	As far as I know the only way to transfer footage back and forth from Vegas to After Effects is to render your footage out of each application and then import it into the other. On the other hand, Premiere Pro and After Effects can past clips back and forth between each application while they are running, or After Effects can import entire Premiere Pro projects with edits preserved. (Once you have added effects in AE you will still have to render out to a movie file to import back into Premiere Pro.) Personally, I have found the ability of AE to import Premiere projects to be a very helpful feature for me.

July 21st, 2005, 04:33 PM	#12
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	You're not missing anything -- it's what you have to do to switch between Vegas and AE. If being able to open project files in AE is your paramount concern, then PP is the only editor for you. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

July 21st, 2005, 04:45 PM	#13
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	yeah that is a big issue I'm trying out discreet combustion 4 at the moment as from what I have read, it functions the same as after effects but is more powerful (I guess that's probably arguable) but the fract still remains that a render is needed to import footage. So I guess I'll see how impractical/practical it is to have an editor and compositor that do not function together like PP and AE. Eniola, thankyou, it is nice to find somebody else who is thinking about this issue. Like you, I find Vegas very easy to use, and powerful enough as an editor, but after using it for a while, you tend to recognise where the line is drawn between NLE's and compositors. So, I'll let you know what it is like using combustion with vegas and the up's and down's of the extra renders and possible work arounds, but I'm still, like you, thinking of switching over to adobe.

July 21st, 2005, 05:03 PM	#14
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	does anyone know if 'frameserving' will get around this issue? something like this : http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/ I'm not up to speed on this subject, but it appears you can use this 'frameserver' to transfer from your NLE of choice to whatever program you want, such as After Effects or Combustion. If that is true, then I guess you can use a different encoder (such as procoder) in place of main concept. Does all the information in the edit get transfered such as fades, dissolves, titles, chapter markers etc...? Can anyone shed some light on this subject? (sorry, I'm fairly new to this game)

July 21st, 2005, 05:51 PM	#15
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Matt, Vegas and PPro are direct competitor NLE's, and if it was simply a question of those two programs head-to-head, I wouldn't have much to say. I use Adobe and am overall quite happy with it. Yet, I don't doubt at all that there are things that Vegas does faster, easier and/or better than PPro. But thowing AE into the mix changes the whole equation. It is a very sophisticated (and complicated) compositing program that will give you capabilities no pure NLE will touch. With the whole integrated Adobe Video Collection Pro package, you pay more and you get more. Without having used the Sony suite, I just SUSPECT the it can't match the features of the AVC Pro. People also often ask whether the PRO version of AE or the Collection is worth the extra cost; my opinion is definitely yes -- the motion tracking alone has been worth it for me. Back to PPro. There is a strobing bug in PPro's handling of certain 100+IRE 24p footage for which there IS a work-around (and I HOPE will be fully resolved in the next release). And probably a few other bugs, too...as does Vegas. I have found the current version of PPro to be quite stable on my system and a real improvement over earlier versions. Also remember that you can download trial versions of all the software for free. After all, despite all the good opinions and ideas here, your own opinion is going to the best one for you! __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!