I'm saying goodbye to IEEE 1394

Dan Euritt · December 26th, 2004, 05:43 PM

there was a firewire update to xp pro that microsoft just released a few days ago.

to re-iterate, THERE ARE VERY FEW FIREWIRE HARD DRIVES... they are really ide drives that plug into firewire external boxes.

sata drives have the sata interface mounted on the hard drive itself... there are very few hard drives with a firewire interface on the drive itself.

you could probably even put a sata hard drive in a firewire external box... all the box would need is a sata interface inside.

Ozzie Alfonso · December 27th, 2004, 11:48 AM

David,

Well, I'm not retired …yet. My first editing system was "Editec", that was before CMX – I go back to 1969. For a while I even used an "NLE" that used an array of 20 VHS decks! I have forgotten the name - but it actually almost worked some of the time. But that was before fast disk drives and digital video anything.

To me Firewire is a god sent. I love its potential and I do hope the folks in charge of evolving it make all the necessary modifications. For starters, I would re-design the connectors - they are by far the worst designed interfaces I've come across. Plug them in wrong once and they need replacement. A slight pull and they come right off. No way to lock them – when working with video streams, this should be a must. There are other problems with the interface that could use a lot of modification. Still, like you, I like the idea of a high-speed (could be broader and faster, but they are working on that) cable that works two ways AND carries data as well as control information. I’m sure all this will come to pass, unless the USB consortium leaps ahead. But for now I’ll sit back and wait while I put my money in more expensive interfaces that will not drive me and my editors nuts. A lot of money has been invested by many manufacturers on 1394, so it’s no wonder saying something like “I’m quitting 1394” raises a good deal of emotion. Let me amend that to – “I’m quitting 1394 until it’s ready for primetime – literally.”

And Dan, I know there is no such thing as a “firewire drive” - it’s only the interface. In fact I’ve had only one firewire interfaced drive go bad on me, everything else has been the interface – and that’s where my polemic lies.

Rob Lohman · December 29th, 2004, 07:09 AM

I don't think Ozzie needs "converting" (back) or a way to get it all
working. I've tried to help Ozzie get a problem in the fixed in the
past and it seems he just has had no luck with firewire.

It's great to hear everything is going well Ozzie! SATA is a great
technology and as you know works great outside the PC with
external SATA as well.

If you want an external drive to move some data around I would
suggest you look into an external USB2 drive, Windows seems to
like those a bit better. For your main work it is far better to stick
with a PATA/SATA drive array or go to a NAS or SAN (expensive).

Removable drives are great for moving stuff around or making
backups etc., but a fast disk array "directly" attached is far better
in terms of reliability etc.

There is no real way to get around firewire for capture/edit etc.
(not even with a direct to harddisk solution, although you might
find one with a direct swappable harddisk that allows you to go
around one part of using firewire) unless to go to a pro camera
with SDI capture boards and such.

All the best with your new setup Ozzie!

Richard Mellor · January 4th, 2005, 09:23 AM

I think a lot of your complaints about firewire are similar to the complaints about Dolby Digital. DTS was a superior format, but it wasn't implemented because at the beginning, when all the movie companies needed an interface to handle digital surround i Dolby was there first.Apple's proprietary firewire was just about the only thing available for digital transfer. the minidv empire was built around this. It was a toll booth to manhattan for apple. Then we were pretty much stuck with it whether we liked it or not.

Many people on this board are working on a number of cameras that do not have a corporate strategie of proprietary control. It's not important to us which interface is used, which brand of tape this is recorded to. We're seeking the highest possible resolution for our dollar.

The firewire interface cannot even handle some of the new throughputs that are being created by the homemade high def cameras being built on this board. HDV is a compromise that I believe we will surpass with our homemade cameras.

GM does not make cars they assemble parts.
when the camera is broken down to parts again.
we will build our own with the parts of our choice
including the cable that carries the data.
If firewire cannot handle the throughput we build into our camera's then we will not include it in our camera

The IT guys have taken over the video world, and things will start happening fast. We will all benefit from this.

I built one when I was fifteen. http://www.realclassic.co.uk/triton04120100.html

December 27th, 2004, 11:48 AM	#17
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	David, Well, I'm not retired …yet. My first editing system was "Editec", that was before CMX – I go back to 1969. For a while I even used an "NLE" that used an array of 20 VHS decks! I have forgotten the name - but it actually almost worked some of the time. But that was before fast disk drives and digital video anything. To me Firewire is a god sent. I love its potential and I do hope the folks in charge of evolving it make all the necessary modifications. For starters, I would re-design the connectors - they are by far the worst designed interfaces I've come across. Plug them in wrong once and they need replacement. A slight pull and they come right off. No way to lock them – when working with video streams, this should be a must. There are other problems with the interface that could use a lot of modification. Still, like you, I like the idea of a high-speed (could be broader and faster, but they are working on that) cable that works two ways AND carries data as well as control information. I’m sure all this will come to pass, unless the USB consortium leaps ahead. But for now I’ll sit back and wait while I put my money in more expensive interfaces that will not drive me and my editors nuts. A lot of money has been invested by many manufacturers on 1394, so it’s no wonder saying something like “I’m quitting 1394” raises a good deal of emotion. Let me amend that to – “I’m quitting 1394 until it’s ready for primetime – literally.” And Dan, I know there is no such thing as a “firewire drive” - it’s only the interface. In fact I’ve had only one firewire interfaced drive go bad on me, everything else has been the interface – and that’s where my polemic lies. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

December 29th, 2004, 07:09 AM	#18
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I don't think Ozzie needs "converting" (back) or a way to get it all working. I've tried to help Ozzie get a problem in the fixed in the past and it seems he just has had no luck with firewire. It's great to hear everything is going well Ozzie! SATA is a great technology and as you know works great outside the PC with external SATA as well. If you want an external drive to move some data around I would suggest you look into an external USB2 drive, Windows seems to like those a bit better. For your main work it is far better to stick with a PATA/SATA drive array or go to a NAS or SAN (expensive). Removable drives are great for moving stuff around or making backups etc., but a fast disk array "directly" attached is far better in terms of reliability etc. There is no real way to get around firewire for capture/edit etc. (not even with a direct to harddisk solution, although you might find one with a direct swappable harddisk that allows you to go around one part of using firewire) unless to go to a pro camera with SDI capture boards and such. All the best with your new setup Ozzie! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 4th, 2005, 09:23 AM	#19
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	firewire I think a lot of your complaints about firewire are similar to the complaints about Dolby Digital. DTS was a superior format, but it wasn't implemented because at the beginning, when all the movie companies needed an interface to handle digital surround i Dolby was there first.Apple's proprietary firewire was just about the only thing available for digital transfer. the minidv empire was built around this. It was a toll booth to manhattan for apple. Then we were pretty much stuck with it whether we liked it or not. Many people on this board are working on a number of cameras that do not have a corporate strategie of proprietary control. It's not important to us which interface is used, which brand of tape this is recorded to. We're seeking the highest possible resolution for our dollar. The firewire interface cannot even handle some of the new throughputs that are being created by the homemade high def cameras being built on this board. HDV is a compromise that I believe we will surpass with our homemade cameras. GM does not make cars they assemble parts. when the camera is broken down to parts again. we will build our own with the parts of our choice including the cable that carries the data. If firewire cannot handle the throughput we build into our camera's then we will not include it in our camera The IT guys have taken over the video world, and things will start happening fast. We will all benefit from this. I built one when I was fifteen. http://www.realclassic.co.uk/triton04120100.html

December 26th, 2004, 05:43 PM	#16
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	there was a firewire update to xp pro that microsoft just released a few days ago. to re-iterate, THERE ARE VERY FEW FIREWIRE HARD DRIVES... they are really ide drives that plug into firewire external boxes. sata drives have the sata interface mounted on the hard drive itself... there are very few hard drives with a firewire interface on the drive itself. you could probably even put a sata hard drive in a firewire external box... all the box would need is a sata interface inside.