Editing system questions.

[Adam Gold]

Perrone's points are all really well-taken, but let's just assume for the moment that HDV and AVCHD aren't going anywhere soon, even if there are no new HDV cams on the horizon. As an editing format you could do worse than building a machine that can handle those formats.

There are already plenty of threads on system recommendations for editing various flavors of HD, especially over at the HD editing forum.

Mo' power = Mo' betta.

A year ago when I built my system, the ideal chips were Quad-Core Xeons, two if you could afford them. Now the hot chip is the i7.

So my system is two quad Xeons, 20 GB RAM, a 10K Velociraptor system drive, and 7 x 1TB video drives in RAID3 plus hot spare (5TB capacity) for projects and raw CFHD video captures. I also have four x 2TB eSATA external drives for various scratch disks, but those aren't strictly necessary.

I know you've visited at least one of these threads already but they might be worth reviewing:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/high-defi...ter-build.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/high-defi...do-i-need.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/high-defi...mputer-hd.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/general-h...ing-avchd.html

As with everything, compromise will always be the order of the day. While you can get good value and impressive bang for the buck these days, cheap and high-performance do not usually go together. So it's really a matter of how much performance and capability you are comfortable paying for.

[Terry Lee]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Why are you building a system for HDV when that technology is quickly fading for the horizon? It's like going out and buying a new SD TV and telling us what a great deal you got.

Well I guess i'm out of the loop. I use an HV30 which is HDV. JVC HD100/110/200/250 all HDV until the GY-HM700. XH-A1/G1 both HDV but the H1 is HD. Sense I don't have 5 to 8 grand to drop on a single camera i'm probably not going to put money into components for a computer designed to work with things I don't have. Don't get me wrong, I want the fastest possible system capable of editing anything but I didn't know HDV was such a low mark.

The 2 monitors are probably going to be ok. I don't know the specs on them, but if you're doing this on the cheap, I am sure you'll live with the limitations.

What limitations?

Does the machine have firewire? How are you planning on getting the video into the computer?

Yes this system has firewire ports. I won't be getting a tape deck anytime soon until they drop in price so it will be straight from my camera via firewire.

How do you plan on getting the HD video OUT of the computer? What will you master to? And what will your finished product be?

my final output will be to DVD.

Does the system have any audio capability? Is that important to you?

It has an audio card. I'm not sure how great though. Yes we do plan on recording voice overs.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Well I guess i'm out of the loop. I use an HV30 which is HDV. JVC HD100/110/200/250 all HDV until the GY-HM700. XH-A1/G1 both HDV but the H1 is HD.

All models designed and introduced years ago and nearing the end of their life cycles. JVC is already moving on in the consumer and pro lines. Tape is dying quickly. Sony has already started phasing out the HDV models in the prosumer space, has moved to tapeless further upmarket and downmarket.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Sense I don't have 5 to 8 grand to drop on a single camera i'm probably not going to put money into components for a computer designed to work with things I don't have.

I'd wager that AVCHD cameras in the $1200 price range will outperform most HDV cameras from a few years ago, save for the truly pro models like the detachable lens JVCs. The market is moving on very quickly indeed.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Don't get me wrong, I want the fastest possible system capable of editing anything but I didn't know HDV was such a low mark.

Sadly, HDV is the bottom of the HD world as far as codecs and recording systems go. Well, save for some of the REALLY poor little $300 consumer cams.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

What limitations?

Refresh speed, ability to dial in color temp, ability to get anything near accurate color, adjustment, reflectivity, contrast ratio, etc.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Yes this system has firewire ports. I won't be getting a tape deck anytime soon until they drop in price so it will be straight from my camera via firewire.

Don't expect to see HDV decks doing anything but going away. They won't be coming down in price.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

my final output will be to DVD.

That makes things VERY simple. So no thoughts about delivering HD in the future from your HD camera?

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

It has an audio card. I'm not sure how great though. Yes we do plan on recording voice overs.

Ok, well I guess you can upgrade your audio card any time.

[Mark Williams]

Terry, you pretty much get what you pay for with computer equipment. After researching this and other forums for over a year and listening to Harm as well as others I ordered a custom built computer from avadirect for about $1,600 to edit P2 DVCPROHD material. In addition to that I bought Edius 5 with the HDSPARk HDTV output card from videoguys($750) and a 19" Samsung HDMI output viewing monitor from Frys for about $290. I now have a decent system that will last me for several years. In case you are interested here are my computer specs. I feel I spent a reasonable amount of money for performance.

ANTEC, Nine Hundred Two Black Mid-Tower Case w/ Window, ATX, No PSU

CORSAIR, CMPSU-650TX TX Series Power Supply, 650W, 80 PLUS®, 24-pin ATX12V EPS12V, SLI Ready

ASUS, P6T Deluxe V2, LGA1366, Intel® X58, 6400 MT/s QPI, DDR3-2000MHz (O.C.) 24GB /6, PCIe x16 SLI CF /3, SATA 3 Gb/s RAID 5 /6, HDA, GbLAN /2, FW /2, ATX, Retail

INTEL, Core™ i7-920 Quad-Core 2.66GHz, LGA1366, 4.8 GT/s QPI, 8MB L3 Cache, 45nm, 130W, EM64T EIST VT XD, Retail

CORSAIR, 3GB (3 x 1GB) XMS3 PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz CL9 (9-9-9-24) 1.65V SDRAM DIMM, Non-ECC

SAPPHIRE, Radeon™ HD 4830 575MHz, 512MB GDDR3 1800MHz, PCIe x16 CrossFire, VGA+DVI, HDMI, Retail

WESTERN DIGITAL, 160GB WD Caviar® SE (WD1600AAJS), SATA 3 Gb/s, 7200 RPM, 8MB cache

WESTERN DIGITAL, 1TB WD Caviar® Black™ (WD1001FALS), SATA 3 Gb/s, 7200 RPM, 32MB Cache

LITE-ON, iHAS324 Black 24x DVD±RW Dual-Layer Burner w/ Smart Erase, SATA, Retail

SABRENT, CRW-UINB Black 65-in-1 Card Reader/Writer Drive, 3.5" Bay, Internal USB

CREATIVE, Sound Blaster® X-Fi Titanium, 7.1 channels, 24-bit 96KHz, PCIe x1

MICROSOFT, Wired Keyboard 500, Black, PS/2

MICROSOFT, Optical Wheel Mouse, PS/2 + USB, Black

MICROSOFT, Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit Edition w/ SP1, OEM

WARRANTY, Silver Warranty Package (3 Year Limited Parts, 3 Year Labor Warranty)

[Terry Lee]

All models designed and introduced years ago and nearing the end of their life cycles. JVC is already moving on in the consumer and pro lines. Tape is dying quickly. Sony has already started phasing out the HDV models in the prosumer space, has moved to tapeless further upmarket and downmarket.

I noticed everything is moving to solid state drives like the HM700. Amazing how just a few years ago everyone was buzzing about HDV on miniDV tapes and the ability to capture 720p and 1080i on on the A1 and HD110.

Sadly, HDV is the bottom of the HD world as far as codecs and recording systems go. Well, save for some of the REALLY poor little $300 consumer cams.

Well to be prepared what should I aim for? I guess I have really been in the dark on these different formats (HDV/HD/AVCHD) I've been reading some on wikipedia just to get a general idea but it seams like there is always something that pops up that I didn't know about :( Is there somewhere I can read on this stuff to get a concise and comprehensive understanding so I can be up to date!? Embarrassing to say "yea i'm into making films" and I don't even know this stuff haha.

Refresh speed, ability to dial in color temp, ability to get anything near accurate color, adjustment, reflectivity, contrast ratio, etc.

A 19" monitor will give me these disadvantages? Here is a link to the monitors Samsung 943SWX 19" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1360x768, 5ms, 15000:1 Dynamic, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com. They were suggested by a friend but he doesn't know anything about video editing so this is why I ask on here.

That makes things VERY simple. So no thoughts about delivering HD in the future from your HD camera?

Here again comes my ignorance. I guess a DVD doesn't support HD? :)

Thanks for working through this with me!
Terry.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

I noticed everything is moving to solid state drives like the HM700. Amazing how just a few years ago everyone was buzzing about HDV on miniDV tapes and the ability to capture 720p and 1080i on on the A1 and HD110.

No, not everyone was buzzing about HDV. Those who had been shooting miniDV on small tapes, were buzzing about HDV. Those used to FAR better quality codecs and video weren't all that excited. Neither were broadcast stations who still only regard HDV as standard def in many cases.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Well to be prepared what should I aim for? I guess I have really been in the dark on these different formats (HDV/HD/AVCHD) I've been reading some on wikipedia just to get a general idea but it seams like there is always something that pops up that I didn't know about :( Is there somewhere I can read on this stuff to get a concise and comprehensive understanding so I can be up to date!? Embarrassing to say "yea i'm into making films" and I don't even know this stuff haha.

I would say to be prepared, you should simply build the best machine you can afford. Then you'll have to make concessions to how you work based on what you can afford. Really, that's all you can do. Some of us are able to spend more money, and make fewer concessions. Some have to cut on a laptop. It is, what it is.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

A 19" monitor will give me these disadvantages? Here is a link to the monitors Samsung 943SWX 19" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1360x768, 5ms, 15000:1 Dynamic, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com. They were suggested by a friend but he doesn't know anything about video editing so this is why I ask on here.

It's not the fact that it's a 19" monitor. It's the fact that the monitor may really not be up to the task of editing video. Looking at Excel spreadsheets and Word documents is one thing, but video use is a lot more critical. Most bargain basement monitors don't do well with it. But if you can't spend any more money, then you can't.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Here again comes my ignorance. I guess a DVD doesn't support HD? :)

No, DVD is SD. BluRay is the standard for putting HD onto optical discs. There are other ways to view HD, but this is currently the standard way. There are some "tricks" to put a small amount of HD onto normal DVDs, but most BluRay players won't support this. And NO DVD players understand HD signals.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Thanks for working through this with me!
Terry.

That's why we're here.

[Terry Lee]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

It's not the fact that it's a 19" monitor. It's the fact that the monitor may really not be up to the task of editing video. Looking at Excel spreadsheets and Word documents is one thing, but video use is a lot more critical. Most bargain basement monitors don't do well with it. But if you can't spend any more money, then you can't.

Something like this?
LG W2253TQ-PF 22" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1080p, 1920x1080, 50000:1, 2ms, 16:9, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com

No, DVD is SD. BluRay is the standard for putting HD onto optical discs. There are other ways to view HD, but this is currently the standard way. There are some "tricks" to put a small amount of HD onto normal DVDs, but most BluRay players won't support this. And NO DVD players understand HD signals.

Well there are a few things I want to do with my final product. I've been working on a film for awhile now and when I get it completed I want to be able to show it in my campus theatre but I don't know what sort of equipment they have besides a projector. Last year someone did the same thing but they played it off their laptop on windows media player. I want to be able to do a little better than that..

I would also like to know a good format for presenting a reel to say a producer (haha) and maybe submitting to a film festival.

If all else fails i'll just make some DVDs for myself and the cast and crew. I suppose I would need a BluRay burner for that, but wouldn't the people watching my film need a BluRay player to get that quality?


Mark, thanks for positng your system. Why a single 160G HD with the 8MB cache?

Adam, That is an impressive machine.... What do you think about a 60G Solid State drive for the OS?

Again, thank you all for the help!

[Harm Millaard]

SSD's are still overpriced in comparison to hard disks. Hard to beat in read performance for single disks, but write performance, specially after several months of use, is disappointing. But technical progress and better controllers in SSD's, as well as declining prices may make them feasible in 1 or 2 years. If you are on a budget, forget them for the time being.

[Adam Gold]

I have no experience with SSDs, so I will, as always, defer to Harm...

BTW, yes, to play BDs you need a BD player and you usually have to burn them in a BD burner. As has been posted here and there, it is possible to burn short Blu-Ray material to standard discs but you still need a BD burner and BD player.

As to the future of HDV, it's hard to argue with anything Perrone says, but it's important to understand that the "death" of this format really applies to the retail supply chain only. I suspect many people will be using this format for years to come, just as some consumers are still using VHS, Hi8 and other formats no longer really supported by new models. They're still making and selling those tapes, even if there are no new cams or decks on the horizon.

But that's really sort of a moot point as any PC you'd want to configure for video right now would need to at least be able to handle AVCHD or better, so the advice to just get the best you can afford is solid.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Something like this?
LG W2253TQ-PF 22" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1080p, 1920x1080, 50000:1, 2ms, 16:9, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com

Something more like this:

Dell UltraSharp 2009W Monitor Details

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Well there are a few things I want to do with my final product. I've been working on a film for awhile now and when I get it completed I want to be able to show it in my campus theatre but I don't know what sort of equipment they have besides a projector. Last year someone did the same thing but they played it off their laptop on windows media player. I want to be able to do a little better than that..

Try to understand that the video itself is separate from the delivery medium these days. HD video can be presented on hard drive, USB thumb drive, BluRay, etc., and it is all of exactly the same quality. In fact, it can all be EXACTLY the same file(s). Delivering your HD video with Windows Media Player is entirely viable. It can play HD video as well as any BluRay player. It just does it from a laptop or PC instead of a BluRay player. In fact, that is how I deliver HD video for streaming at my building. I produce HD video, place it on my Windows Media Server, and stream out beautiful HD. Because it has to go out over the network, I don't encode that file at the same rate I would a bluray, but I certainly could.

It is important to understand how your campus projects. Or if they have any means of projecting HD at all.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

I would also like to know a good format for presenting a reel to say a producer (haha) and maybe submitting to a film festival.

Festivals all have their own unique way of doing things, but they all give the delivery specs well before the submission deadline.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

If all else fails i'll just make some DVDs for myself and the cast and crew. I suppose I would need a BluRay burner for that, but wouldn't the people watching my film need a BluRay player to get that quality?

You do NOT need a bluray burner to make DVDs. You need a bluray burner if you want to put HD video files on optical media. You can put HD video files on something beside optical media and give that to your cast/crew. Or you can put SD video files on regular DVD and give that to your cast/crew and you just need a regular DVD burner for that.

[Terry Lee]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Try to understand that the video itself is separate from the delivery medium these days. HD video can be presented on hard drive, USB thumb drive, BluRay, etc., and it is all of exactly the same quality. In fact, it can all be EXACTLY the same file(s). Delivering your HD video with Windows Media Player is entirely viable. It can play HD video as well as any BluRay player. It just does it from a laptop or PC instead of a BluRay player. In fact, that is how I deliver HD video for streaming at my building. I produce HD video, place it on my Windows Media Server, and stream out beautiful HD. Because it has to go out over the network, I don't encode that file at the same rate I would a bluray, but I certainly could.

See I still have it in my mind that different mediums require different formats for those files to be in order for that medium to recognize it.

It is important to understand how your campus projects. Or if they have any means of projecting HD at all.

I will definately figure this out. Chances are I will have to do the same thing as the last guy. If you say there is no problem with that delivery method then i'll take your word for it.

You can put HD video files on something beside optical media and give that to your cast/crew.

I'm clueless here.. :)

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

I'm clueless here.. :)

Ok, let's see if we can separate things here:

What is HD?
HD = Video file that is 1920x1080 or 1280x720 and encoded in one of a million ways.


Popular encoding methods for HD Files:

WMV = Plays with Windows Media Player software. Standard on an PC

Mpeg4 = Plays with Quicktime, VLC, and many other free players on PC and Mac

AVC = Same/similar to Mpeg4 and also used as the file type to burn BluRay.

Mpeg2 = ONLY format suitable for SD DVD, and formerly used for BluRay disks. Generally needs a specialized reader.


Popular ways to deliver HD Files:

BluRay = Standard for Optical delivery of HD material. Need a BluRay burner to make them, need a BluRay reader to view.

USB Thumb Drive = Small storage format that plugs into any laptop or desktop PC or Mac.

SDHC = Small card based format that fits natively into many laptops, or with a USB adapter, can be used on nearly any PC or Mac

CompactFlash = Similar to SDHC but larger, and at the top end, faster.

Standard DVD = You can't fit a lot of BluRay media onto standard DVDs because of their size, but you can write them with a standard DVD burner. There are two ways to handle this. One, you can burn a standard data disk that can be played on any PC or Mac. You simply create one of the file types above at a size that will fit on the disk.

The other way to do this is to burn these using BluRay burning software. Not all machines support reading plain DVDs encoded like BluRays. The Playstation does, and a a small number of BluRay machines do. This is the least compatible way of getting BluRay out there and is really false economy now as BluRay Discs have gotten pretty cheap. When they were $30, this made sense. Now that you can get 25GB BluRay disks for $2.50, it's a lot harder to justify.


Keep in mind that if I encode my HD source media to an Mpeg4/AVC file, I can put that file on my hard drive and play it as HD. I can put it on a plain DVD and play it as HD. I can put it on an SDHC card and play it, I can burn it to a real BluRay disc and put it in a BluRay player and play it, etc. The media is just the delivery container. It says NOTHING about the file, or the quality of the file contained on it.

[Bruce Foreman]

Terry,

A few months ago I ordered a Studio XPS Core i7 based computer from Dell for $1100. Had 6GB RAM an ATI graphics card (not the best...but...it works!) with 512MB on board, a 500GB internal drive, and a standard DVD burner. And more.

A couple of days ago one of the email offers I keep getting from them offered essentially the same machine with a 640GB hard drive for $958.

Some NLE packages that will take your video project from capture/import through editing and on to DVD or Blu-ray authoring (if you have the Blu-ray burner) cost around $100 or so.

I would waste no more time fiddling with obsolete components and therefore "trap yourself in the dust" left by the rest as they move with technology.

Oh...Both the Dell I bought and the current offer came with a 21.5 inch widescreen monitor.

[Terry Lee]

Ok let me see if I understand this. What I am doing is transfering a analog information from my tape to a digital signal (high definition digital signal) which can be encoded into WMV, MPEG4, MPEG2 and AVC which are essentially "containers" which only define how the files are stored.

BluRay is standard for HD because you can fit much more information on a BluRay disc than you can a standard DVD. But to distribute them, people will need a BluRay player..?

I could encode my footage as a MPEG4 or AVC file and play it as HD right off of my computer or put it on a DVD and play it as HD (but the file can't exceed the DVD size)

So. My best bet for showing this film in HD in my university's theatre is keep it on my computer unless of course they have a BluRay player which can be projected on the big screen. If so, I should need a BluRay burner.

Or I could put my film on a thumb drive or external hard drive and show it on a projector from someone else's computer.

Well my computer build I hope can reflect some of the informaiton layed out by everyone here. I have chosen the following equipment to work with Sony Vegas 9.

1. Core i7 920
2. Biostar TPower X58A Motherboard (Biostar TPower X58A Motherboard - Intel X58, LGA 1366, ATX, Audio, PCI Express 2.0, CrossFire Ready, SLI Ready, Dual Gigabit LAN at TigerDirect.com)
3. 1TB Western Digital 7200rpm 32mb cache
4. OCZ Tri channel memory DDR3 PC15000 (3GB)
5. Monitor. I chose (LG W2253TQ-PF 22" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1080p, 1920x1080, 50000:1, 2ms, 16:9, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com) I compaired the specs to the Dell UltraSharp 2009W that you gave me the link to and the LG provides 50,000:1 Dynamic contrast ratio, 2ms response time and 1080p Full HD resolution where as the Dell has a 2000:1 ratio and 5ms response time. Is there something I am missing?

The sixth item on my list was a super fast hard drive for my operating system but I can't find a decently priced one.

Then there would be a bluray burner but as they are around $200, I will hold off for now.

Sound decent?

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Ok let me see if I understand this. What I am doing is transfering a analog information from my tape to a digital signal (high definition digital signal) which can be encoded into WMV, MPEG4, MPEG2 and AVC which are essentially "containers" which only define how the files are stored.

In the general sense we are speaking, you are getting it pretty well. I'll hold off on the semantics of a codec versus a container for now, but your idea is exactly right.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

BluRay is standard for HD because you can fit much more information on a BluRay disc than you can a standard DVD. But to distribute them, people will need a BluRay player..?

Correct.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

I could encode my footage as a MPEG4 or AVC file and play it as HD right off of my computer or put it on a DVD and play it as HD (but the file can't exceed the DVD size)

Also correct.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

So. My best bet for showing this film in HD in my university's theatre is keep it on my computer unless of course they have a BluRay player which can be projected on the big screen. If so, I should need a BluRay burner.

Yep!

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Or I could put my film on a thumb drive or external hard drive and show it on a projector from someone else's computer.

Right. It's possible the projector may have a USB port in which you could plug straight in.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Well my computer build I hope can reflect some of the informaiton layed out by everyone here. I have chosen the following equipment to work with Sony Vegas 9.

Do be aware that Vegas 9 has been buggy for some folks. Mine has been bulletproof, but I tend to not install like others do. Just watch yourself.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

1. Core i7 920
2. Biostar TPower X58A Motherboard (Biostar TPower X58A Motherboard - Intel X58, LGA 1366, ATX, Audio, PCI Express 2.0, CrossFire Ready, SLI Ready, Dual Gigabit LAN at TigerDirect.com)
3. 1TB Western Digital 7200rpm 32mb cache
4. OCZ Tri channel memory DDR3 PC15000 (3GB)
5. Monitor. I chose (LG W2253TQ-PF 22" Widescreen LCD Monitor - 1080p, 1920x1080, 50000:1, 2ms, 16:9, DVI, VGA, Black at TigerDirect.com) I compaired the specs to the Dell UltraSharp 2009W that you gave me the link to and the LG provides 50,000:1 Dynamic contrast ratio, 2ms response time and 1080p Full HD resolution where as the Dell has a 2000:1 ratio and 5ms response time. Is there something I am missing?

List looks pretty good, but the RAM is a bit short. If you are going to do much work with HD, I recommend 8GB of RAM and a 64bit OS. Windows 7 comes out shortly and it's excellent. We've been running it for months at my office with no problems. Monitor choice looks ok too.

Just a warning on the Hard drive. HD takes up a LOT of room. HDV like your camrea is HIGHLY compressed. And when you put it on your computer you can either choose to edit in that highly compressed format, or you can expand it into a format that is more suitable for editing. If you choose the later, you'll be looking at about 1GB per minute or more. Uncompressed HD is 550GB per hour, but not many people try to edit in uncompressed. But it would not be unusual to see something like 100GB per hour or so for a good editing format. Plan accordingly.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

The sixth item on my list was a super fast hard drive for my operating system but I can't find a decently priced one.

The OS does not need a superfast hard drive. A 7200RPM drive is MORE than sufficient. The entire OS kernal will fit into RAM, reducing the need for a lot of speedy hard drive.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Then there would be a bluray burner but as they are around $200, I will hold off for now.

Many people are holding off. I will ask you to consider this. You have your originals on tape. You put all of it on the timeline, edit, color, etc. Then you create a finished master file with all your hours of work. How will you save that file? It will be 20GB per hour or so. I hear many people talk about not buying bluray because they have the original tapes on the shelves. Terrific. But what about all that work you just did? Do you choose not to protect it? I bought a BluRay recorder not to deliver BluRay disks for clients, but to archive my hard work. With 25GB discs costing about $2.50, it's CHEAP insurance.

Originally Posted by Terry Lee

Sound decent?

Sounds very good. Just be sure to think ALL the way through your projects, from beginning to end, so you buy what you actually need.