Fastmotion no problem, but slowmotion?? at DVinfo.net

Jos Svendsen · March 28th, 2004, 06:06 AM

Hi There

Good to be here. I finally did the registration bit after being after peeking around for a while. And you all seem to have the right mix of humor and seriousnes for me.

But dear folkes. How do you get a somewhat decent slowmotion on DV?

Fast motion is of course no problem, but since you can't speed the camera up as you do on a film camera, you have to do it in post. I have tried to record on DVCAm and play back on DV, just to get a 2X head start, but i kept running into sync problems.
I can get at decent .6 x in AE or Vegas, but I want to go even slower. I does not have to be natual looking, but it has to be smooth, as I am mixed up in a Koyaanisqatsi-like project, and the director has the notion that I can produce a slow motion miracle. Since it is art, I can motormouth the use of a smooth slowmotionlike effect. Anybody having any ideas?

Guy Bruner · March 28th, 2004, 06:30 AM

If you insert a velocity envelope in Vegas, adjust, and then CTRL-drag you can get extremely slow motion. You might do a search over in the Vegas forum. This question has been asked there before.

Jos Svendsen · March 28th, 2004, 06:57 AM

Amazing the difference between searching on "slow motion" instead of slowmotion. This is one of the problems about beeing non-english. It is not the words that is the problem, it is all the stuff between them, that gives all the problems.
Just tried the tweeks and the effect is much better than the vanilla-version.

Thanks

Glenn Chan · March 28th, 2004, 01:14 PM

There are some 3rd party plug-ins like Twixtor and Boris Red's something-motion (I forget the name, but boris red is expensive) that will do an even better job. They "intelligently" make up the in-between frames instead of blending fields and such. 50% speed will be fine in most NLEs, but if you want to go lower you might want to look at those plug-ins/programs (Twixtor and Boris Red).

Jim Lafferty · March 30th, 2004, 11:40 PM

Vegas 4 has a supersampling envelope which will render interpolated frames at a rate that coincides with your setting -- so, a setting of 6 will render six times the number of frames as originally in the source file and interpolate among them to generate your slow or fast-mo.

It's a seriously render-heavy task, but the results are generally pretty good.

I've also seen a product called ReTimer (I think) that provided stunning results, though if I recall correctly it was steeply priced.

- jim

Peter Jefferson · March 31st, 2004, 04:58 AM

check out dynapel's/ gooder video slowmotion

you can get a pack of 3 apps

slow mo
motionperfect
steadyhand

dirt cheap and work flawlessly

Vegas also has a great slow mo function, however depending on ur shutter, the effect of the slow mo will be different.

for eg, in vegas your editing a scene shot at 1/50 slow it down to 75 and its fine.. slow it down further to 50.. then u start getting slight pulses... slow it down further and u get stutters (i like to call stutter motion :) ) Vegas still creates the gapped frames, however their not as prominant as the master frames.

BUT

same scene, shot at 1/250 u can drop it down to 25% real speed and its smooth as silk.

I think i know why it does it this way, but i might be wrong so i'll jsut shut up now......

Jim Lafferty · March 31st, 2004, 01:54 PM

Actually...

Slo motion is something of an interest for me, so I checked out Dynapel's SloMo and rendered out a comparison between it and Vegas 4.

I took an NTSC DV source video and rendered it out with a 33% velocity envelope in Vegas, with the supersampling envelope set to 8 (max).

Then I did a 3x slomo render from SloMo using the same source file, at the best quality, with the Huffyuv 2.1.1 lossless codec.

They both look a little off -- Vegas renders start to deteriorate at 35% or slower, but in comparison the Vegas render beats the Dynapel render by a mile.

I rendered them out to 1mbps quicktime files, here you go:

Vegas does 1/3rd speed,

Dynapel's SloMo doing the same.

Notice the shimmering artifacts in the Dynapel clip -- the video looks like it's being pushed through cellophane at times.

With Vegas there's minor stuttering, but nothing too detracting. I'm betting I could improve on that, even, if I had the time to generate renders in different ways...

- jim

Peter Jefferson · April 2nd, 2004, 12:34 PM

hey jim, how did u configure your super sampling rate??

THIS is probably why Dynapels works better for me right now, coz im assuming that im using the default vegas settings (ie, i havent changed anything)

thanks for the input :) I love vegas slow mo, but i cant get it any lower that 705ish without deteriorating... Id like to go slower!!!

Jesse Rosten · April 2nd, 2004, 01:37 PM

Here's a thought. Actually it's more of a question. What happens if you shoot something in 30p then bring it into a 24p timeline and slow it down. Would that give you the same effect as over cranking?

Forgive me if this topic has already been covered elsewhere.

Jim Lafferty · April 4th, 2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

hey jim, how did u configure your super sampling rate??

Supersampling is a Video Bus track. You can access it, along with Motion Blur and Fade To Color envelopes by first activating the Video Bus (View --> Video Bus Tracks or ctrl+shift+b). Once the Video Bus appears, you right-click it and select Insert/Remove Envelope. It's adjusted like any other envelope.

Also -- when doing speed changes in Vegas, be sure to right-click the event in question and go to Properties. Then, check 'Force resample'.

Be prepared to wait on long renders :D

- jim

Peter Jefferson · April 6th, 2004, 09:57 PM

hey Jim,
thanks for that mate, ive never really needed to use this, but ill give it a try, i dont usually drop my speeds lower than 60%... but i like the idea of being able to!!

thanks again!

Jim Lafferty · April 8th, 2004, 09:44 AM

You bet :)

March 28th, 2004, 06:06 AM	#1
Jos Svendsen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 221	Fastmotion no problem, but slowmotion?? Hi There Good to be here. I finally did the registration bit after being after peeking around for a while. And you all seem to have the right mix of humor and seriousnes for me. But dear folkes. How do you get a somewhat decent slowmotion on DV? Fast motion is of course no problem, but since you can't speed the camera up as you do on a film camera, you have to do it in post. I have tried to record on DVCAm and play back on DV, just to get a 2X head start, but i kept running into sync problems. I can get at decent .6 x in AE or Vegas, but I want to go even slower. I does not have to be natual looking, but it has to be smooth, as I am mixed up in a Koyaanisqatsi-like project, and the director has the notion that I can produce a slow motion miracle. Since it is art, I can motormouth the use of a smooth slowmotionlike effect. Anybody having any ideas? __________________ ---------------------------- 12c41 JOS. Svendsen

March 28th, 2004, 06:57 AM	#3
Jos Svendsen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 221	Thanks! Amazing the difference between searching on "slow motion" instead of slowmotion. This is one of the problems about beeing non-english. It is not the words that is the problem, it is all the stuff between them, that gives all the problems. Just tried the tweeks and the effect is much better than the vanilla-version. Thanks __________________ ---------------------------- 12c41 JOS. Svendsen

March 30th, 2004, 11:40 PM	#5
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Vegas 4 has a supersampling envelope which will render interpolated frames at a rate that coincides with your setting -- so, a setting of 6 will render six times the number of frames as originally in the source file and interpolate among them to generate your slow or fast-mo. It's a seriously render-heavy task, but the results are generally pretty good. I've also seen a product called ReTimer (I think) that provided stunning results, though if I recall correctly it was steeply priced. - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

March 31st, 2004, 01:54 PM	#7
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Actually... Slo motion is something of an interest for me, so I checked out Dynapel's SloMo and rendered out a comparison between it and Vegas 4. I took an NTSC DV source video and rendered it out with a 33% velocity envelope in Vegas, with the supersampling envelope set to 8 (max). Then I did a 3x slomo render from SloMo using the same source file, at the best quality, with the Huffyuv 2.1.1 lossless codec. They both look a little off -- Vegas renders start to deteriorate at 35% or slower, but in comparison the Vegas render beats the Dynapel render by a mile. I rendered them out to 1mbps quicktime files, here you go: Vegas does 1/3rd speed, Dynapel's SloMo doing the same. Notice the shimmering artifacts in the Dynapel clip -- the video looks like it's being pushed through cellophane at times. With Vegas there's minor stuttering, but nothing too detracting. I'm betting I could improve on that, even, if I had the time to generate renders in different ways... - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

April 8th, 2004, 09:44 AM	#12
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	You bet :) __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

March 28th, 2004, 06:30 AM	#2
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	If you insert a velocity envelope in Vegas, adjust, and then CTRL-drag you can get extremely slow motion. You might do a search over in the Vegas forum. This question has been asked there before.

March 28th, 2004, 01:14 PM	#4
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	There are some 3rd party plug-ins like Twixtor and Boris Red's something-motion (I forget the name, but boris red is expensive) that will do an even better job. They "intelligently" make up the in-between frames instead of blending fields and such. 50% speed will be fine in most NLEs, but if you want to go lower you might want to look at those plug-ins/programs (Twixtor and Boris Red).

March 31st, 2004, 04:58 AM	#6
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	check out dynapel's/ gooder video slowmotion you can get a pack of 3 apps slow mo motionperfect steadyhand dirt cheap and work flawlessly Vegas also has a great slow mo function, however depending on ur shutter, the effect of the slow mo will be different. for eg, in vegas your editing a scene shot at 1/50 slow it down to 75 and its fine.. slow it down further to 50.. then u start getting slight pulses... slow it down further and u get stutters (i like to call stutter motion :) ) Vegas still creates the gapped frames, however their not as prominant as the master frames. BUT same scene, shot at 1/250 u can drop it down to 25% real speed and its smooth as silk. I think i know why it does it this way, but i might be wrong so i'll jsut shut up now......

April 2nd, 2004, 12:34 PM	#8
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	hey jim, how did u configure your super sampling rate?? THIS is probably why Dynapels works better for me right now, coz im assuming that im using the default vegas settings (ie, i havent changed anything) thanks for the input :) I love vegas slow mo, but i cant get it any lower that 705ish without deteriorating... Id like to go slower!!!

April 2nd, 2004, 01:37 PM	#9
Jesse Rosten Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Redding, California Posts: 114	Here's a thought. Actually it's more of a question. What happens if you shoot something in 30p then bring it into a 24p timeline and slow it down. Would that give you the same effect as over cranking? Forgive me if this topic has already been covered elsewhere.

April 6th, 2004, 09:57 PM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	hey Jim, thanks for that mate, ive never really needed to use this, but ill give it a try, i dont usually drop my speeds lower than 60%... but i like the idea of being able to!! thanks again!