REAL DVDs not DVD-R at DVinfo.net

Mike Zorger · January 16th, 2004, 12:41 PM

How much have you guys seen the prices for REAL dvds not dvd-r's? I have heard they are around $900 for the first copy and i dont know the price after that. What have you guys seem them for. Also, i heaard you have to have all of the music rights for all of the songs on your dvd in writing. IS THAT TRUE.??/

Nathan Gifford · January 16th, 2004, 01:01 PM

"Real" DVDs are made differently than DVD-R. For one thing copyhouse actually sticks the DVD onto a blank, reflective disk. This is one of the reasons why these DVDs are so expensive for setups.

John Britt · January 16th, 2004, 01:55 PM

The process is called "glass mastering" -- the same as with CDs. Discmakers, one of the best known duplicating houses for CD production, has in recent times begun doing DVDs as well. Visit them at http://dvd.discmakers.com/

They show prices of $1390.00 for 1000 DVDs, glass-mastered. They're DVD-5, which hold 4.7GB of data/video (as oppossed to many commercial DVDs, which are DVD-9s and hold 9.4GB of data/video). That's enough for about 2 hours of video, which should be fine for most independent productions. I don't know if they offer DVD-9 production or what the cost of such would be.

As for proof of rights -- a glance at Disc Maker's Intellectual Property Rights Form ( http://www.discmakers.com/pdf/ipr.pdf ) shows this:

"YOU MUST attach a list of track titles, artist(s), and IPR owner(s) with every new order. Sampling/remixing of
recordings which you do not own (regardless of type, quantity, and length) requires licensing of those original recordings.
*If you are not the IPR owner, proof of replication licensing from the IPR owner for licensed tracks is REQUIRED."

This is pretty common. When I did short-run CD duplication, I made every artist complete a form saying that they retained the rights to all music and graphic elements included with the CD.

The duplicator has to protect themselves. They don't have time to hunt down every artist and make sure that they've given you the rights to their songs. The onus is upon you -- if you are making a legitimate film and take your work seriously, then you will have gotten the rights to the music you use. Or at least, if you want to have a major duplication house produce them, you will.

Mike Zorger · January 16th, 2004, 07:54 PM

do you hvae to get 1000 of the glass mastered dvd's or can you get like 500 for a cheaper price?

John Britt · January 16th, 2004, 08:46 PM

click on the link to discmakers that I posted above, then click on the link for 1000 DVDs for $1390. Scroll down for a list of different quantities.

Browse the Discmakers site for some great information. I used to always recommend them to artists that wanted more than the short runs I could do.

Peter Moore · January 16th, 2004, 10:55 PM

"Also, i heaard you have to have all of the music rights for all of the songs on your dvd in writing. IS THAT TRUE.??/"

Legally, yes. Practically, not all replicators enforce this, but you're still liable for a lawsuit if you don't get permission.

Anyway, nowadays you can usually get 1000 DVD-5s for under $1000. You can sometimes get 500 disks for less (maybe $800 or so), but because the glass master is so expensive and the individual plastic replicants are so cheap, it's not ecomically efficient to get less than 1000 copies. Save them for posterity. :)

I used Acutrack.com. I loved them. I was just one project, but I had one account manager who answered all my questions and called me back numerous times to help me get the project 100% right.

Mike Zorger · January 16th, 2004, 11:57 PM

i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless.

Jason Gatti · January 17th, 2004, 06:04 AM

You can purchase 500 at a time but it's not worth it.
300 copies= $3.65 each $1,096 for all of them
500 copies=$2.57 each $1,285 for all of them
1000 copies=$1.39 each $1,390 for all 1000
It pay's to buy in bulk. 500 more for an extra $115.

John Britt · January 17th, 2004, 09:40 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless. -->>>

Mike, please refer to this post from resident lawyer Paul Tauger from this thread:

"Perhaps, perhaps not. I have frequently sued on behalf of clients who felt the need to set an example for others considering infringing their work. I know of high schools that have been sued for copyright infringement. There's even a relatively famous case in which a minister was sued for making 20 copies of a hymn for his choir."

The thread refers to wedding videography, but Paul's statements apply to you as well.

As a budding artist, I hope that you feel the need to respect the rights of other artists. Despite the RIAA's efforts to prove otherwise, in my opinion copyright law is not only about making money. It's about an artist having control over how their work is used. If a musician doesn't want you using his/her music in your movie, then they should have the right to say "No."

Now, if you are making a little homebrew short that only your immediate family and friends will see, then I don't think it becomes an issue (and that's just a personal opinion, mind you). But if you are making this available for 200+ people -- *and* making a profit off of it, as I assume when you say you're selling the DVDs -- then you have a responsibility to do the right thing. Either get the rights or use royalty-free music. And if you argue that using royalty-free music will "deaden the impact" of a scene, then you've just proven how valuable the original music is to your film, and why you must get the rights to it.

That's not to say that the artist will ever know of your film or that they will sue you. But there's a difference between what you *should* do and what you'll *get away* with. Since you are an active member of this forum, I would assume that -- regardless of your age -- you take your work and the work of others seriously. You wouldn't try to use the excuse of "why mess with a little kid" if you got caught cheating on a test at school, would you? Probably not, because you're smart enough to know better. This is just one more lesson in your studies of becoming a filmmaker -- why cheat on this one?

(EDIT: OK, so I ended on a bit of a melodramatic note. This is just a topic that always gets me typing...)

James Nyfeler · January 17th, 2004, 10:01 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless. -->>>

You don't ever have to get music rights for anything that you do, you just have to be willing to deal with the consequences if you don't. Quantity has nothing to do with it (other than perhaps showing up as a larger blip on the attorney's radar screen). There are plenty of people out there who make videos for their kid's football team, or baseball team or basketball team that include copyrighted music, that will never be "caught" by the attorneys.

Using copyrighted music is easy -- we've all heard the song that would be perfect accompanyment to our video project. Rip it from the CD (or worse, have a friend send it to you), and drop it on the timeline. What is more challenging is creating a custom tailored, royalty-free piece of music from one of the many applications that make this job easier.

With all that being said, I view the liklihood of an attorney coming after you (a "little kid" as you put it) is almost nil, and even if they did, all you'd probably have to do is to stop doing it and destroy any work product that uses the copyrighted music. On the other hand, do you really want to deal with it if it does happen?

Jason Gatti · January 17th, 2004, 12:39 PM

I'll tell you what I do, and as far as I know it is legal. Of course it will never be as good as the music you can buy but here it goes anyway. My nephew is really into music. He has a few programs for his computer that you can put in the music of a song. You then can copy the music in several types of computer generated sound. You can then alter the beat, add some of your own twists etc. By the time your done it has a really good sound and is really no longer a copy of the original. You pretty much use the song as a foundation to build off of. The words are gone of course but if all you need is music it is pretty awsome. You should have a music background for the program he uses. I can't read music and could never use it. His newest program, the drums sound just like drums, guitar sounds just like guitar. It's pretty amazing. He is workng on some upbeat dance music for me now. Not sure if this will help but I thought I would share it with you.

January 16th, 2004, 12:41 PM	#1
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	REAL DVDs not DVD-R How much have you guys seen the prices for REAL dvds not dvd-r's? I have heard they are around $900 for the first copy and i dont know the price after that. What have you guys seem them for. Also, i heaard you have to have all of the music rights for all of the songs on your dvd in writing. IS THAT TRUE.??/

January 16th, 2004, 01:01 PM	#2
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	"Real" DVDs are made differently than DVD-R. For one thing copyhouse actually sticks the DVD onto a blank, reflective disk. This is one of the reasons why these DVDs are so expensive for setups. __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

January 17th, 2004, 10:01 AM	#10
James Nyfeler Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 32	Copyrights <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless. -->>> You don't ever have to get music rights for anything that you do, you just have to be willing to deal with the consequences if you don't. Quantity has nothing to do with it (other than perhaps showing up as a larger blip on the attorney's radar screen). There are plenty of people out there who make videos for their kid's football team, or baseball team or basketball team that include copyrighted music, that will never be "caught" by the attorneys. Using copyrighted music is easy -- we've all heard the song that would be perfect accompanyment to our video project. Rip it from the CD (or worse, have a friend send it to you), and drop it on the timeline. What is more challenging is creating a custom tailored, royalty-free piece of music from one of the many applications that make this job easier. With all that being said, I view the liklihood of an attorney coming after you (a "little kid" as you put it) is almost nil, and even if they did, all you'd probably have to do is to stop doing it and destroy any work product that uses the copyrighted music. On the other hand, do you really want to deal with it if it does happen?

January 16th, 2004, 01:55 PM	#3
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	The process is called "glass mastering" -- the same as with CDs. Discmakers, one of the best known duplicating houses for CD production, has in recent times begun doing DVDs as well. Visit them at http://dvd.discmakers.com/ They show prices of $1390.00 for 1000 DVDs, glass-mastered. They're DVD-5, which hold 4.7GB of data/video (as oppossed to many commercial DVDs, which are DVD-9s and hold 9.4GB of data/video). That's enough for about 2 hours of video, which should be fine for most independent productions. I don't know if they offer DVD-9 production or what the cost of such would be. As for proof of rights -- a glance at Disc Maker's Intellectual Property Rights Form ( http://www.discmakers.com/pdf/ipr.pdf ) shows this: "YOU MUST attach a list of track titles, artist(s), and IPR owner(s) with every new order. Sampling/remixing of recordings which you do not own (regardless of type, quantity, and length) requires licensing of those original recordings. *If you are not the IPR owner, proof of replication licensing from the IPR owner for licensed tracks is REQUIRED." This is pretty common. When I did short-run CD duplication, I made every artist complete a form saying that they retained the rights to all music and graphic elements included with the CD. The duplicator has to protect themselves. They don't have time to hunt down every artist and make sure that they've given you the rights to their songs. The onus is upon you -- if you are making a legitimate film and take your work seriously, then you will have gotten the rights to the music you use. Or at least, if you want to have a major duplication house produce them, you will.

January 16th, 2004, 07:54 PM	#4
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	do you hvae to get 1000 of the glass mastered dvd's or can you get like 500 for a cheaper price?

January 16th, 2004, 08:46 PM	#5
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	click on the link to discmakers that I posted above, then click on the link for 1000 DVDs for $1390. Scroll down for a list of different quantities. Browse the Discmakers site for some great information. I used to always recommend them to artists that wanted more than the short runs I could do.

January 16th, 2004, 10:55 PM	#6
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	"Also, i heaard you have to have all of the music rights for all of the songs on your dvd in writing. IS THAT TRUE.??/" Legally, yes. Practically, not all replicators enforce this, but you're still liable for a lawsuit if you don't get permission. Anyway, nowadays you can usually get 1000 DVD-5s for under $1000. You can sometimes get 500 disks for less (maybe $800 or so), but because the glass master is so expensive and the individual plastic replicants are so cheap, it's not ecomically efficient to get less than 1000 copies. Save them for posterity. :) I used Acutrack.com. I loved them. I was just one project, but I had one account manager who answered all my questions and called me back numerous times to help me get the project 100% right.

January 16th, 2004, 11:57 PM	#7
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless.

January 17th, 2004, 06:04 AM	#8
Jason Gatti Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 48	You can purchase 500 at a time but it's not worth it. 300 copies= $3.65 each $1,096 for all of them 500 copies=$2.57 each $1,285 for all of them 1000 copies=$1.39 each $1,390 for all 1000 It pay's to buy in bulk. 500 more for an extra $115.

January 17th, 2004, 09:40 AM	#9
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : i heard you dont have to get music rights if you dont sell over 20,000 copies. If i sold like 200 copies. Why would anyone try to mess with a little kid. The cost to get a lawyer would be like $8,000 and it would be pointless. -->>> Mike, please refer to this post from resident lawyer Paul Tauger from this thread: "Perhaps, perhaps not. I have frequently sued on behalf of clients who felt the need to set an example for others considering infringing their work. I know of high schools that have been sued for copyright infringement. There's even a relatively famous case in which a minister was sued for making 20 copies of a hymn for his choir." The thread refers to wedding videography, but Paul's statements apply to you as well. As a budding artist, I hope that you feel the need to respect the rights of other artists. Despite the RIAA's efforts to prove otherwise, in my opinion copyright law is not only about making money. It's about an artist having control over how their work is used. If a musician doesn't want you using his/her music in your movie, then they should have the right to say "No." Now, if you are making a little homebrew short that only your immediate family and friends will see, then I don't think it becomes an issue (and that's just a personal opinion, mind you). But if you are making this available for 200+ people -- and making a profit off of it, as I assume when you say you're selling the DVDs -- then you have a responsibility to do the right thing. Either get the rights or use royalty-free music. And if you argue that using royalty-free music will "deaden the impact" of a scene, then you've just proven how valuable the original music is to your film, and why you must get the rights to it. That's not to say that the artist will ever know of your film or that they will sue you. But there's a difference between what you should do and what you'll get away with. Since you are an active member of this forum, I would assume that -- regardless of your age -- you take your work and the work of others seriously. You wouldn't try to use the excuse of "why mess with a little kid" if you got caught cheating on a test at school, would you? Probably not, because you're smart enough to know better. This is just one more lesson in your studies of becoming a filmmaker -- why cheat on this one? (EDIT: OK, so I ended on a bit of a melodramatic note. This is just a topic that always gets me typing...)

January 17th, 2004, 12:39 PM	#11
Jason Gatti Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 48	I'll tell you what I do, and as far as I know it is legal. Of course it will never be as good as the music you can buy but here it goes anyway. My nephew is really into music. He has a few programs for his computer that you can put in the music of a song. You then can copy the music in several types of computer generated sound. You can then alter the beat, add some of your own twists etc. By the time your done it has a really good sound and is really no longer a copy of the original. You pretty much use the song as a foundation to build off of. The words are gone of course but if all you need is music it is pretty awsome. You should have a music background for the program he uses. I can't read music and could never use it. His newest program, the drums sound just like drums, guitar sounds just like guitar. It's pretty amazing. He is workng on some upbeat dance music for me now. Not sure if this will help but I thought I would share it with you.