Videoguys Top 10 of 2003

Michael Plante · March 6th, 2004, 10:18 PM

Thank you both for your quick and detailed replys.

Ok answers to the questions:

Three big factors are

your computer: Am buying a new computer just for editing. Looking at Pentium 4 3.0 MHz with 800 MHz Front Side BUS with 1.5 Gig RAM kingston.

2 HD one samll for Windows XP professional. The other probably 250 GB Western Digital

Graphics card 128MB probably ATI RADEON 9800 128MB DDR

your budget: For the NLE budget is $1000

and the kinds of editing you want to do: Editing feature length movie off of mini DV panny DVX100 and JVC GY- DV500. The different cameras will NOT be used on the same movie

Glenn Chan · March 6th, 2004, 11:33 PM

So as to not hijack this thread, I started this one:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=22502

Robert Martens · March 6th, 2004, 11:59 PM

I have to agree with the comments on Edition. Great software? Sure, for the most part. It gets a bad reputation 'cause it's Pinnacle software, but it's not that bad most of the time. Try it before you judge it.

Number two, however, I'm not so sure about.

The bad rap it gets is not unwarranted, you see. The very fact that it's distributed by Pinnacle means you're relying on them for your upgrades and tech support; God knows how good they are with all that. And in all the reviews I've seen of the Pro version, I've yet to see anyone mention the fact that there are perhaps TWO users out there who have the analog capture function working. And even that's a stretch. See editionplanet.com for more.

I'm getting sick and tired of this company--and, to a lesser extent, software--and I was lucky enough to have recently scratched my LE install CD beyond repair. I can't install the software! Perfect excuse to get something new. :)

Josh Brusin · March 7th, 2004, 01:14 AM

nice that dual 64bit machines that can run 8gb of ram didn't make the list... (not apple retailers?)

Glenn Chan · March 7th, 2004, 04:06 AM

You could've gotten Xeon machines that can run up to 24GB of RAM before the G5 and AMD64. Maybe no one cares because they don't need that much RAM yet.

Michael Plante · March 7th, 2004, 10:04 AM

I see people criticizing various NLEs but then not offering their ideas of what is better.

Perhaps if you are going to post in this thread to help out us newbies people could post EXACTLY what they have used and what they liked the best.

It does no good to slam a particular NLE when you have only tried an old version or not even tried it at all.

Again, I am suggesting these things because this thread is asking for what is a good NLE and I too am about to purchase one and would like to know what people here have found was good and what they thought was bad BUT only if you have actually used it.

Emmet Lucey · March 7th, 2004, 10:42 AM

Easy Micheal. I can tell you from experience the slamming is often well deserved, written from experienced users who often know the software better than the tech support at the call center, and because none of these systems are perfect, carefully examining the criticisms may be your best path.

As my earlier post indicated, i have half a year in on LE now, will be continueing with it as it serves my 'style' of editing. Steep learning curve, weak tech support, powerful software.

Register on the different webboards to the different NLE's you are looking at. Get a feel for the weaknesses of each system. Do term searches on your graphics card set up, drivers, etc. in the web board forums to discover other users encountering conflicts.

I've been using severl WD 250 hds for the last four months. Good units. The graphics card is where you should be careful, both with nle cmpatability, & windows updates creating conflicts / replacing drivers. Best to have nothing on the system but xp and the minimum software u need - no games, no roxio, that's for sure. Careful about what codecs you add onto your media player .... etc.

1.5 m ram is more than enough. Don't know about hdef editing, that's uncharted waters for the most of these nle's.

good luck.

Julian Luttrell · March 7th, 2004, 11:11 AM

I take your point Michael - here's what I have used, have stopped using and/or still use.

Premiere. OK. Never found a reason to stop using it. Much more stable than Edition. Large and professional user base. Like IBM - nobody ever got fired for buying Premiere. Downside is the workflow is clunky (well, on pre-Pro it is).

Edition. Nuff said. Shame really.

I have not used Vegas.

I soon learned that saving a few £/$ on an NLE is a false saving. The resulting software/system is often limited in its usability (lots of mouse clicks to do simple or repetitive actions, no ability to batch program the system, etc). So I stopped looking there and invested a bit more cash

I needed:
a reliability
b flexibility (not just software, but the NLE video card too)
c openness so can be integrated properly with other software for media management, effects and graphics, etc.

So I took a step up (a couple of years ago now), bought a Digisuite DTV card (very flexible and rock solid), and invested in some more expensive NLE software. My current rave is IMC Incite - $2800 but flexible in exactly the ways I need. Alternatively, for a little less, InSync SpeedRazor.

I don't like Avid because of the cost involved in upgrading once you are on board.

Looking at the market today I would instead buy a MAC, a decklink card and FCP4.

Just my 2p-worth,

Julian

Michael Plante · March 7th, 2004, 11:14 AM

GREAT information and so quick.

I am taking your advice and doing some more research.

Thank you all.

Josh Brusin · March 7th, 2004, 02:39 PM

what operating system can effectively use 24gb of ram? Linux running Massive? I can't afford an IT department... if there is a solution where I can use a xeon with that much ram I'd be all ears.

Mike Rehmus · March 7th, 2004, 10:06 PM

Ya otta try to deal with Pinnacle directly. I had to take their product and my equipment in to Pinnacle in Mountain View and PROVE to them that their product did not work.

While the Consumer Division VP agreed with me, the Directors of Hardware and Software development and the Director of Support would not agree that the product was fundamentally flawed.

Unbelievable how rapidly they obsolete their products.

Am I ever glad I bought Canopus. I've had the hardware for 7 years now and they just keep supporting it. I've had great real time editing since they first introduced it.

When my system had problems, I was invited to take it into them. They found that the on-board SCSI controller on the SuperMicro board was defective and GAVE me a new controller to fix the problem.

Before I found them, the story from Pinnacle, Matrox and FAST was, "Ha! You screwed up! You trusted us! Haw Haw Haw"

Robert Martens · March 8th, 2004, 02:36 PM

"It's YOUR fault, you need to upgrade your hardware drivers/Quicktime installation."

"It's YOUR fault, you need to downgrade your drivers/Quicktime installation."

"It's YOUR fault, you need to run Quicktime in safe mode."

"YOU messed something up, try reinstalling the software."

"YOU caused this problem, reformat and reinstall your OS."

"YOU'RE the one who doesn't have a dedicated video editing system, don't look at us. You don't have an entire computer dedicated to running our software, that's your problem."

As much as tech support staff members like Dennis Radeke (who's no longer with the company) and Rick Popko--the only two individuals I've dealt with directly--WANT to help, and TRY to, their hands are effectively tied. They support the software, they don't write it--as many bug reports as they can submit to the development staff, it's still up to the programmers to fix what they did.

But before I get too far into the Pinnacle-hating tangent, I should note that this DOES, in a way, tie into the original thread, insofar as I think these issues are reason for Liquid Edition to be lower on anyone's list.

I find it to be the best product Pinnacle has ever released, and a damn good one when taken on its own merits, so I think it belongs on there somewhere, but the company's history of dealing with its customers (that bundle deal they had, the "Pinnacle Application Graveyard", for example, consisting of Commotion, Impression, TitleDeko, and some other once-great-but-now-dead app, or the way they still promote Commotion as a compositing program), and the way it continues to handle Edition users' complaints, drags it down much farther.

As much as I love and use Edition, I fear it's only a matter of time before it meets a similar fate.

Bill Ravens · March 8th, 2004, 04:21 PM

Gary....

Thank you for your honesty and openness. However, I gotta take issue with you! If you want to provide biased reviews, they should appear in mags with the title "advertisement". They should not appear in public forums such as this. If you insist on posting your advertisements here, I think Chris should make a special category for ADVERTISEMENTS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM SPONSORS. To present your reviews as a public service, IMHO, is misleading and out of my own definition of integrity.

March 7th, 2004, 10:06 PM	#26
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Ya otta try to deal with Pinnacle directly. I had to take their product and my equipment in to Pinnacle in Mountain View and PROVE to them that their product did not work. While the Consumer Division VP agreed with me, the Directors of Hardware and Software development and the Director of Support would not agree that the product was fundamentally flawed. Unbelievable how rapidly they obsolete their products. Am I ever glad I bought Canopus. I've had the hardware for 7 years now and they just keep supporting it. I've had great real time editing since they first introduced it. When my system had problems, I was invited to take it into them. They found that the on-board SCSI controller on the SuperMicro board was defective and GAVE me a new controller to fix the problem. Before I found them, the story from Pinnacle, Matrox and FAST was, "Ha! You screwed up! You trusted us! Haw Haw Haw" __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

March 6th, 2004, 10:18 PM	#16
Michael Plante New Boot Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 14	Thank you both for your quick and detailed replys. Ok answers to the questions: Three big factors are your computer: Am buying a new computer just for editing. Looking at Pentium 4 3.0 MHz with 800 MHz Front Side BUS with 1.5 Gig RAM kingston. 2 HD one samll for Windows XP professional. The other probably 250 GB Western Digital Graphics card 128MB probably ATI RADEON 9800 128MB DDR your budget: For the NLE budget is $1000 and the kinds of editing you want to do: Editing feature length movie off of mini DV panny DVX100 and JVC GY- DV500. The different cameras will NOT be used on the same movie

March 6th, 2004, 11:33 PM	#17
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	So as to not hijack this thread, I started this one: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=22502

March 6th, 2004, 11:59 PM	#18
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	I have to agree with the comments on Edition. Great software? Sure, for the most part. It gets a bad reputation 'cause it's Pinnacle software, but it's not that bad most of the time. Try it before you judge it. Number two, however, I'm not so sure about. The bad rap it gets is not unwarranted, you see. The very fact that it's distributed by Pinnacle means you're relying on them for your upgrades and tech support; God knows how good they are with all that. And in all the reviews I've seen of the Pro version, I've yet to see anyone mention the fact that there are perhaps TWO users out there who have the analog capture function working. And even that's a stretch. See editionplanet.com for more. I'm getting sick and tired of this company--and, to a lesser extent, software--and I was lucky enough to have recently scratched my LE install CD beyond repair. I can't install the software! Perfect excuse to get something new. :)

March 7th, 2004, 01:14 AM	#19
Josh Brusin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 439	nice that dual 64bit machines that can run 8gb of ram didn't make the list... (not apple retailers?)

March 7th, 2004, 04:06 AM	#20
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	You could've gotten Xeon machines that can run up to 24GB of RAM before the G5 and AMD64. Maybe no one cares because they don't need that much RAM yet.

March 7th, 2004, 10:04 AM	#21
Michael Plante New Boot Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 14	I see people criticizing various NLEs but then not offering their ideas of what is better. Perhaps if you are going to post in this thread to help out us newbies people could post EXACTLY what they have used and what they liked the best. It does no good to slam a particular NLE when you have only tried an old version or not even tried it at all. Again, I am suggesting these things because this thread is asking for what is a good NLE and I too am about to purchase one and would like to know what people here have found was good and what they thought was bad BUT only if you have actually used it.

March 7th, 2004, 10:42 AM	#22
Emmet Lucey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: lillehammer norway Posts: 67	Easy Micheal. I can tell you from experience the slamming is often well deserved, written from experienced users who often know the software better than the tech support at the call center, and because none of these systems are perfect, carefully examining the criticisms may be your best path. As my earlier post indicated, i have half a year in on LE now, will be continueing with it as it serves my 'style' of editing. Steep learning curve, weak tech support, powerful software. Register on the different webboards to the different NLE's you are looking at. Get a feel for the weaknesses of each system. Do term searches on your graphics card set up, drivers, etc. in the web board forums to discover other users encountering conflicts. I've been using severl WD 250 hds for the last four months. Good units. The graphics card is where you should be careful, both with nle cmpatability, & windows updates creating conflicts / replacing drivers. Best to have nothing on the system but xp and the minimum software u need - no games, no roxio, that's for sure. Careful about what codecs you add onto your media player .... etc. 1.5 m ram is more than enough. Don't know about hdef editing, that's uncharted waters for the most of these nle's. good luck.

March 7th, 2004, 11:11 AM	#23
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	I take your point Michael - here's what I have used, have stopped using and/or still use. Premiere. OK. Never found a reason to stop using it. Much more stable than Edition. Large and professional user base. Like IBM - nobody ever got fired for buying Premiere. Downside is the workflow is clunky (well, on pre-Pro it is). Edition. Nuff said. Shame really. I have not used Vegas. I soon learned that saving a few £/$ on an NLE is a false saving. The resulting software/system is often limited in its usability (lots of mouse clicks to do simple or repetitive actions, no ability to batch program the system, etc). So I stopped looking there and invested a bit more cash I needed: a reliability b flexibility (not just software, but the NLE video card too) c openness so can be integrated properly with other software for media management, effects and graphics, etc. So I took a step up (a couple of years ago now), bought a Digisuite DTV card (very flexible and rock solid), and invested in some more expensive NLE software. My current rave is IMC Incite - $2800 but flexible in exactly the ways I need. Alternatively, for a little less, InSync SpeedRazor. I don't like Avid because of the cost involved in upgrading once you are on board. Looking at the market today I would instead buy a MAC, a decklink card and FCP4. Just my 2p-worth, Julian

March 7th, 2004, 11:14 AM	#24
Michael Plante New Boot Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 14	GREAT information and so quick. I am taking your advice and doing some more research. Thank you all.

March 7th, 2004, 02:39 PM	#25
Josh Brusin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 439	what operating system can effectively use 24gb of ram? Linux running Massive? I can't afford an IT department... if there is a solution where I can use a xeon with that much ram I'd be all ears.

March 8th, 2004, 02:36 PM	#27
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	"It's YOUR fault, you need to upgrade your hardware drivers/Quicktime installation." "It's YOUR fault, you need to downgrade your drivers/Quicktime installation." "It's YOUR fault, you need to run Quicktime in safe mode." "YOU messed something up, try reinstalling the software." "YOU caused this problem, reformat and reinstall your OS." "YOU'RE the one who doesn't have a dedicated video editing system, don't look at us. You don't have an entire computer dedicated to running our software, that's your problem." As much as tech support staff members like Dennis Radeke (who's no longer with the company) and Rick Popko--the only two individuals I've dealt with directly--WANT to help, and TRY to, their hands are effectively tied. They support the software, they don't write it--as many bug reports as they can submit to the development staff, it's still up to the programmers to fix what they did. But before I get too far into the Pinnacle-hating tangent, I should note that this DOES, in a way, tie into the original thread, insofar as I think these issues are reason for Liquid Edition to be lower on anyone's list. I find it to be the best product Pinnacle has ever released, and a damn good one when taken on its own merits, so I think it belongs on there somewhere, but the company's history of dealing with its customers (that bundle deal they had, the "Pinnacle Application Graveyard", for example, consisting of Commotion, Impression, TitleDeko, and some other once-great-but-now-dead app, or the way they still promote Commotion as a compositing program), and the way it continues to handle Edition users' complaints, drags it down much farther. As much as I love and use Edition, I fear it's only a matter of time before it meets a similar fate.

March 8th, 2004, 04:21 PM	#28
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Gary.... Thank you for your honesty and openness. However, I gotta take issue with you! If you want to provide biased reviews, they should appear in mags with the title "advertisement". They should not appear in public forums such as this. If you insist on posting your advertisements here, I think Chris should make a special category for ADVERTISEMENTS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM SPONSORS. To present your reviews as a public service, IMHO, is misleading and out of my own definition of integrity.