Saving as AVI question at DVinfo.net

Dan Lahav · December 11th, 2003, 02:48 AM

Is there any loss of quality if i keep rendering my projects as AVI? For example, I want to edit a clip, then render it as an AVI file... Then I want to insert it into a much larger set of clips and save those as one big AVI. Is there any degredation of quality if i keep rendering the same AVI file over and over?

BTW I'm using vegas 4.0e

Kieran Clayton · December 11th, 2003, 02:54 AM

Depends what codec you're using..

DV is a lossy codec, hence each compression and recompression degrades the image.

uncompressed/full frame avi is a non-destructive codec, but the file size is immense.

A halfway house is something like Digital Anarchy's microcosm codec for quicktime, which compresses while simultaneously being non-destructive. It's not a real-time codec though. ie it's great for storage and for sending footage to a client, but for editing and things like that it won't do.

Kieran

Dan Lahav · December 11th, 2003, 02:55 AM

hrmmm im just using Vegas's AVI uncompressed NTSC codec I guess... I dont mind the big file sizes, i have 2x250GB HDD'S :)

Kieran Clayton · December 11th, 2003, 03:50 AM

You might want to consider saving as a quicktime .mov instead.. I believe I'm right in saying that the animation codec gives you a smaller file size than uncompressed avi and is also non-destructive.

If you're wanting to archive things then microcosm is only $99, which is pretty good value.

Kieran

Aaron Koolen · December 11th, 2003, 04:14 AM

Kieran, what compression ratios does Microcosm get? I currently archive my footage and things on MPG2 as a size/quality compromise but if this is close to in size (even 2 or 3 times the size) I would live with that for lossless.

Aaron

Kieran Clayton · December 11th, 2003, 04:26 AM

You'd be better off checking out DA's site;
http://digitalanarchy.com/micro/micro_loss.html

and if you have any questions then the DA forum over at the cow is the place to go to get answers from the company themselves:

http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=66

Kieran

David Hurdon · December 11th, 2003, 06:33 AM

Dan there have been many tests made available on the effect of multiple compression cycles on various DV codecs, like MS AVI, Canopus, Main Concept. None shows objectionable degredation in a few compressions. They certainly do vary if you run 10 - 50 compressions but who does?

David Hurdon

Glenn Chan · December 11th, 2003, 12:38 PM

The difference between 1st and 2nd generation DV is hard to tell. Adam Wilt writes that it's indistinguishable.

10 (or was it 50?) generations with Microsoft DV is noticeable.
10 generations with Quicktime DV is noticeable. see codecs.onerivermedia.com
vegas's DV codec is supposed to be the same across any number of generations. digitalvideoediting.com has a picture of it in their Vegas review.

DV compression is pretty reasonable. I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid it unless you are using really crappy codecs, which you aren't.

Dan Lahav · December 11th, 2003, 04:43 PM

thanks guys, got all my questions answered :)

December 11th, 2003, 02:48 AM	#1
Dan Lahav Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: CA Posts: 172	Saving as AVI question Is there any loss of quality if i keep rendering my projects as AVI? For example, I want to edit a clip, then render it as an AVI file... Then I want to insert it into a much larger set of clips and save those as one big AVI. Is there any degredation of quality if i keep rendering the same AVI file over and over? BTW I'm using vegas 4.0e

December 11th, 2003, 04:14 AM	#5
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Kieran, what compression ratios does Microcosm get? I currently archive my footage and things on MPG2 as a size/quality compromise but if this is close to in size (even 2 or 3 times the size) I would live with that for lossless. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

December 11th, 2003, 06:33 AM	#7
David Hurdon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 484	Dan there have been many tests made available on the effect of multiple compression cycles on various DV codecs, like MS AVI, Canopus, Main Concept. None shows objectionable degredation in a few compressions. They certainly do vary if you run 10 - 50 compressions but who does? David Hurdon __________________ Site:http://www.faceliftmarketing.ca Blog:http://www.websitevideo.blogspot.com

December 11th, 2003, 02:54 AM	#2
Kieran Clayton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 56	Depends what codec you're using.. DV is a lossy codec, hence each compression and recompression degrades the image. uncompressed/full frame avi is a non-destructive codec, but the file size is immense. A halfway house is something like Digital Anarchy's microcosm codec for quicktime, which compresses while simultaneously being non-destructive. It's not a real-time codec though. ie it's great for storage and for sending footage to a client, but for editing and things like that it won't do. Kieran

December 11th, 2003, 02:55 AM	#3
Dan Lahav Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: CA Posts: 172	hrmmm im just using Vegas's AVI uncompressed NTSC codec I guess... I dont mind the big file sizes, i have 2x250GB HDD'S :)

December 11th, 2003, 03:50 AM	#4
Kieran Clayton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 56	You might want to consider saving as a quicktime .mov instead.. I believe I'm right in saying that the animation codec gives you a smaller file size than uncompressed avi and is also non-destructive. If you're wanting to archive things then microcosm is only $99, which is pretty good value. Kieran

December 11th, 2003, 04:26 AM	#6
Kieran Clayton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 56	You'd be better off checking out DA's site; http://digitalanarchy.com/micro/micro_loss.html and if you have any questions then the DA forum over at the cow is the place to go to get answers from the company themselves: http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=66 Kieran

December 11th, 2003, 12:38 PM	#8
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	The difference between 1st and 2nd generation DV is hard to tell. Adam Wilt writes that it's indistinguishable. 10 (or was it 50?) generations with Microsoft DV is noticeable. 10 generations with Quicktime DV is noticeable. see codecs.onerivermedia.com vegas's DV codec is supposed to be the same across any number of generations. digitalvideoediting.com has a picture of it in their Vegas review. DV compression is pretty reasonable. I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid it unless you are using really crappy codecs, which you aren't.

December 11th, 2003, 04:43 PM	#9
Dan Lahav Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: CA Posts: 172	thanks guys, got all my questions answered :)