Combustion and Particle Illusion at DVinfo.net

Peter Jefferson · December 6th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Just wondering if anyone here has any good tutorial sites which can assist in using these apps...
i was recently provided with combustion 2.1 and i find im a lil stupid when it comes to the way this thing flows...

ive tried the combustion website, but the tutes dont really explain all that much...

anyone here use it??

reason i mentioned PI is because i can use elements from it within combustion...

Robert Knecht Schmidt · December 7th, 2003, 10:34 AM

I'm not sure what tutorials you were able to find, but Lesson 9, "Animating Particle Effects," on page 283 of the combustion 2 tutorials (dated December 2001) should be useful to you.

Peter Jefferson · December 8th, 2003, 04:31 AM

these were teh basic runthroughs found on the installer and website...

nothing much to go on with.. :(

Robert Knecht Schmidt · December 8th, 2003, 07:34 AM

What sorts of things do you want to do with Particle Effects that that tutorial doesn't allow you to do?

(The tutorial I described above marries a particle generator to a flying rocketship and shoots fiery smoke out the back. This is the one you're thinking about, too, right?)

Peter Jefferson · December 9th, 2003, 02:52 AM

yeah, thats the one..

have u ever used particle illusion?? the interface on that is great, but i dont have a full veriosn and seeing as combustion works with PI files, i thought there would be no need to get it...

the rocket is pretty basic for what i want to do, hwoever the tedium involved in animating apath is what is aggravating me...

i woudl jsut like something wher ei can jsut keyframe a path and let it roll...

i didnt really find the tutorials in C2 very helpful, as i am a complete newbie to this app...

i guess perserverance will have to take hold.. i was only hoping for an easier solution that having to literally plant every element on the timeline...
i need something which is faster to work with...

Robert Martens · December 15th, 2003, 02:37 AM

Have you tried the ones at http://www.wondertouch.com/tutorials.asp? I know you said you saw the ones at "the website", but wasn't sure if you meant Discreet's site or not.

The tutorials at Wondertouch's page should be helpful, though a bit confusing at first; combustion's particle engine actually IS particleillusion, as it turns out, and uses many of the same naming conventions, so things shouldn't be TOO bad.

Best I can tell, having won a copy of PI in a contest, the major reason to get a copy of the standalone program is speed. Things work a LOT faster. Less overhead, I suppose, as it does only particles, whereas in combustion you've got the rest of your project that needs to be processed. Other than that, well, you get pretty much everything you need in combustion, AND a tracking tool. Particleillusion has none.

Nate Fields · August 12th, 2006, 11:40 AM

is there a way to make the particle in the background instead of the foreground?

Nate Fields · August 12th, 2006, 11:41 AM

or is greenscreen better fo that

Peter Jefferson · August 13th, 2006, 06:49 AM

GAWD!! This was so long ago!!!
As it happens in the time of this thread being made to now.. i now distribute PI here ... and i do in house training for it too.. lol
progress hey... lol

and yes, NOW there are video tutes, back back then, they didnt exist.. lol

and combustion is now owned by autodesk... and i think is now onto its 4th generation.. lol

wow how time flies.. .

"Nate Fields is there a way to make the particle in the background instead of the foreground? ""

yup, there is a "blocker" which literally shaves off areas u specify with points. these blockers can also be keyframed for size, motion and location. Literally point to point and it blocks that area.. there is also a deflector which allows u to create bounce and refraction from a solid.. lets say u have a car crash, i can draw in a deflector and trtack it with teh cars motion, then throw in ur effect and have the cars deflect it making it look natural.. then layer ANOTHER deflector on.. let say the bonnet/hood.. and as the sparks fly, and fall with gravity, they "bounce" off the hood... pretty nifty stuff, all in realtime if ur GPU is balsy enough.. ))

((The tutorials at Wondertouch's page should be helpful, though a bit confusing at first; combustion's particle engine actually IS particleillusion, as it turns out, and uses many of the same naming conventions, so things shouldn't be TOO bad.))
Yeah i was always aware of that, however each worked in veryu different manners... in combustion, it was very thorough.. but alot more tedious.. and considering the grunt required to run it, let alone render it PI as standalone as far more efficient for this sort of thing.. Back then Combustion was at V2, so it was pretty boggy if u had a crappy GFX card... ))

Best I can tell, having won a copy of PI in a contest, the major reason to get a copy of the standalone program is speed.

((And twealability IMO.. speed as in processined AND manipulation/editing.. ))

Things work a LOT faster. Less overhead, I suppose, as it does only particles, whereas in combustion you've got the rest of your project that needs to be processed.

((I never really saw that, as i only imported the clips which required the effects.. so the only processing needed through Combustion was for that particualr clip.. usually no more than 10 seconds per shot anyway.. Once rendered, i woudl then import that newly processed clip into the NLE and continue.. ))

Other than that, well, you get pretty much everything you need in combustion, AND a tracking tool.
((COmbustion also has external previews on reference montitor, as well as many other compositing and filters .. for straight out WOW factor effects, PI is good, but for all round after effectish type of stuff, combustion is in a league of its own.. the two really cannot be compared.. i think the closest thing to PI would be ALamDV.. but even Alam has afew extra features that PI doesnt have.. ))

Wow.. that is a REALLY REALLY REALLY old thread... lol

Bill Hamell · August 13th, 2006, 07:01 AM

I just upgraded PI SE to V3, you can get the SE demo good for 30 days.
That's what i did then bought SE $99 US and then upgraded to the full V3 a few weeks later.

Elvis's video's are on the way.

Peter that's for the blocker explanation I needed that!
any more bits of wisdom for us nebies to PI?

Thanks,
Bill

Peter Jefferson · August 14th, 2006, 06:31 AM

what would u like to know?

Bill Hamell · August 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM

Peter,

I ran into this yesterday making my first full color animated particle.

I made one in Uleads 3D Production Studio at 200 x 200 pixels I exported to tga and brought it in to PI at 128 x128 pixels, that was the largest size available.

I then needed another particle that could not be rendered in 3DPS so I used Poser 6 the image size was 500 x 500 and I brought it into PI at 256 x 256 using png images.
The size of the particle library jumped to 8 Mb so I reduce the size to 128 x 128 and the library dropped in size to 2 Mb.

So my questions are; what is a good size to make the particles, and what is the best size to use when importing them into PI?

Thanks,
Bill

Peter Jefferson · August 14th, 2006, 09:41 PM

Bill the easiest way is to allow PI to set teh stage resolution automatically based on the "backround imge "

Open PI
youll have a blank stage

go to background and select ur BG image, sequence or video
PI will prompt you and say "background res is different to project res, set the stage to background res?? "
u click yes.

Voila

PI is now set to the res of the background
Now go to "View" "projct settings" and tweak around with ur frame rates and field orders etcetc (being PC, u shoudl be in progressive scan anyway.. in here u can also set ur aspect ratio, from cinemascope through to full frame

when exporting, u can export as a targa sequence, or a uncompressed AVi with transparency, but in all honesty, i find it much more efficient to export the movie as an uncomporessed avi with BG and particles intact... bu thtis again is all dependant on your work and what u need to do with the composition

December 6th, 2003, 11:07 PM	#1
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Combustion and Particle Illusion Just wondering if anyone here has any good tutorial sites which can assist in using these apps... i was recently provided with combustion 2.1 and i find im a lil stupid when it comes to the way this thing flows... ive tried the combustion website, but the tutes dont really explain all that much... anyone here use it?? reason i mentioned PI is because i can use elements from it within combustion...

December 7th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#2
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	I'm not sure what tutorials you were able to find, but Lesson 9, "Animating Particle Effects," on page 283 of the combustion 2 tutorials (dated December 2001) should be useful to you. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 8th, 2003, 07:34 AM	#4
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	What sorts of things do you want to do with Particle Effects that that tutorial doesn't allow you to do? (The tutorial I described above marries a particle generator to a flying rocketship and shoots fiery smoke out the back. This is the one you're thinking about, too, right?) __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 13th, 2006, 07:01 AM	#10
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	I just upgraded PI SE to V3, you can get the SE demo good for 30 days. That's what i did then bought SE $99 US and then upgraded to the full V3 a few weeks later. Elvis's video's are on the way. Peter that's for the blocker explanation I needed that! any more bits of wisdom for us nebies to PI? Thanks, Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

August 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM	#12
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Peter, I ran into this yesterday making my first full color animated particle. I made one in Uleads 3D Production Studio at 200 x 200 pixels I exported to tga and brought it in to PI at 128 x128 pixels, that was the largest size available. I then needed another particle that could not be rendered in 3DPS so I used Poser 6 the image size was 500 x 500 and I brought it into PI at 256 x 256 using png images. The size of the particle library jumped to 8 Mb so I reduce the size to 128 x 128 and the library dropped in size to 2 Mb. So my questions are; what is a good size to make the particles, and what is the best size to use when importing them into PI? Thanks, Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

December 8th, 2003, 04:31 AM	#3
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	these were teh basic runthroughs found on the installer and website... nothing much to go on with.. :(

December 9th, 2003, 02:52 AM	#5
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	yeah, thats the one.. have u ever used particle illusion?? the interface on that is great, but i dont have a full veriosn and seeing as combustion works with PI files, i thought there would be no need to get it... the rocket is pretty basic for what i want to do, hwoever the tedium involved in animating apath is what is aggravating me... i woudl jsut like something wher ei can jsut keyframe a path and let it roll... i didnt really find the tutorials in C2 very helpful, as i am a complete newbie to this app... i guess perserverance will have to take hold.. i was only hoping for an easier solution that having to literally plant every element on the timeline... i need something which is faster to work with...

December 15th, 2003, 02:37 AM	#6
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	Have you tried the ones at http://www.wondertouch.com/tutorials.asp? I know you said you saw the ones at "the website", but wasn't sure if you meant Discreet's site or not. The tutorials at Wondertouch's page should be helpful, though a bit confusing at first; combustion's particle engine actually IS particleillusion, as it turns out, and uses many of the same naming conventions, so things shouldn't be TOO bad. Best I can tell, having won a copy of PI in a contest, the major reason to get a copy of the standalone program is speed. Things work a LOT faster. Less overhead, I suppose, as it does only particles, whereas in combustion you've got the rest of your project that needs to be processed. Other than that, well, you get pretty much everything you need in combustion, AND a tracking tool. Particleillusion has none.

August 12th, 2006, 11:40 AM	#7
Nate Fields Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Markleville IN Posts: 58	is there a way to make the particle in the background instead of the foreground?

August 12th, 2006, 11:41 AM	#8
Nate Fields Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Markleville IN Posts: 58	or is greenscreen better fo that

August 13th, 2006, 06:49 AM	#9
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	GAWD!! This was so long ago!!! As it happens in the time of this thread being made to now.. i now distribute PI here ... and i do in house training for it too.. lol progress hey... lol and yes, NOW there are video tutes, back back then, they didnt exist.. lol and combustion is now owned by autodesk... and i think is now onto its 4th generation.. lol wow how time flies.. . "Nate Fields is there a way to make the particle in the background instead of the foreground? "" yup, there is a "blocker" which literally shaves off areas u specify with points. these blockers can also be keyframed for size, motion and location. Literally point to point and it blocks that area.. there is also a deflector which allows u to create bounce and refraction from a solid.. lets say u have a car crash, i can draw in a deflector and trtack it with teh cars motion, then throw in ur effect and have the cars deflect it making it look natural.. then layer ANOTHER deflector on.. let say the bonnet/hood.. and as the sparks fly, and fall with gravity, they "bounce" off the hood... pretty nifty stuff, all in realtime if ur GPU is balsy enough.. )) ((The tutorials at Wondertouch's page should be helpful, though a bit confusing at first; combustion's particle engine actually IS particleillusion, as it turns out, and uses many of the same naming conventions, so things shouldn't be TOO bad.)) Yeah i was always aware of that, however each worked in veryu different manners... in combustion, it was very thorough.. but alot more tedious.. and considering the grunt required to run it, let alone render it PI as standalone as far more efficient for this sort of thing.. Back then Combustion was at V2, so it was pretty boggy if u had a crappy GFX card... )) Best I can tell, having won a copy of PI in a contest, the major reason to get a copy of the standalone program is speed. ((And twealability IMO.. speed as in processined AND manipulation/editing.. )) Things work a LOT faster. Less overhead, I suppose, as it does only particles, whereas in combustion you've got the rest of your project that needs to be processed. ((I never really saw that, as i only imported the clips which required the effects.. so the only processing needed through Combustion was for that particualr clip.. usually no more than 10 seconds per shot anyway.. Once rendered, i woudl then import that newly processed clip into the NLE and continue.. )) Other than that, well, you get pretty much everything you need in combustion, AND a tracking tool. ((COmbustion also has external previews on reference montitor, as well as many other compositing and filters .. for straight out WOW factor effects, PI is good, but for all round after effectish type of stuff, combustion is in a league of its own.. the two really cannot be compared.. i think the closest thing to PI would be ALamDV.. but even Alam has afew extra features that PI doesnt have.. )) Wow.. that is a REALLY REALLY REALLY old thread... lol

August 14th, 2006, 06:31 AM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	what would u like to know?

August 14th, 2006, 09:41 PM	#13
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Bill the easiest way is to allow PI to set teh stage resolution automatically based on the "backround imge " Open PI youll have a blank stage go to background and select ur BG image, sequence or video PI will prompt you and say "background res is different to project res, set the stage to background res?? " u click yes. Voila PI is now set to the res of the background Now go to "View" "projct settings" and tweak around with ur frame rates and field orders etcetc (being PC, u shoudl be in progressive scan anyway.. in here u can also set ur aspect ratio, from cinemascope through to full frame when exporting, u can export as a targa sequence, or a uncompressed AVi with transparency, but in all honesty, i find it much more efficient to export the movie as an uncomporessed avi with BG and particles intact... bu thtis again is all dependant on your work and what u need to do with the composition