AVID Xpress Pro or Premiere Pro? Also, a few more questions

Darren Houle · November 19th, 2003, 10:06 PM

I use Avid Xpress Pro (without a Mojo) and have used Premiere once. I would have to agree that Premiere was not as stable as I'd have liked and the interface was a little glitchy if I overtaxed it. Avid has a steeper learning curve, a higher price tag, and higher system requirements, but it's the NLE for me.

By the way, I realize the Mojo does more than this but basically it's 1) an AD/DA converter, and 2) an additional external processor used to preview effects in realtime without rendering. I chose not to get one because I already have a standalone Sony DVMC-DA2 (and my GL2 can act as an analog to digital converter) and Avid Xpress Pro renders almost all it's effects in real time now without rendering anyway. Only the more complicated layered effects and 3D stuff requires rendering. I haven't missed the Mojo, but then again I don't know what I'm missing, do I.

My only complaint about the Avid software is that you have to build a system to house it and then you can never patch/upgrade/install any software again... Avid is really sensitive to BIOS upgrades, new video drivers, playing nice alongside other apps (photoshop's gamma tool in the Windows Startup folder killed Avid playback) and installing Windows service packs can mysteriously disable things like your system's firewire port. Heck, just installing Avid activated a new and annoying double beep that happens everytime the system boots (on a system with no SCSI drives).

My recommendation... go with Avid, but install it on a clean new server and then leave it alone.

Zac Stein · November 19th, 2003, 10:34 PM

As with AVID, is it true that FCP is about the only other NLE that can export EDL's that film labs can use?

Zac

Jon Yurek · November 20th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Jon, what version of Premiere are you using? For versions 6.x I would definitely agree that Premiere sucks.

Premiere Pro 7 might be a lot better since it's completely rewritten. (haven't used it)

I was using 6.5. When we lost the two scenes and sound effects, that was 6.0. Neither machine we used for editing has XP, so we haven't tried 7 yet... and I find it very annoying that 7 requires XP, since I can't see any good reason to upgrade.

I actually think I might try Vegas next. I'll be shooting/editing another movie pretty soon, so we'll see how that goes.

Mark Jefferson · November 20th, 2003, 07:56 AM

I've heard good things about Vegas Video. Personally, I'm too lazy to try and learn another NLE. I use Premiere 6.5 and have learned to live with the bugs. Save early, save often! Let me know what you think of Vegas.

Cheers,
slakrboy

Randy Reyes · November 20th, 2003, 11:03 AM

Hi Darren! In regards to your previous comment... So you mean to tell me that after I've installed avid on my CPU, I won't be able to install other programs (etc) safely without affecting AVID? I've heard how particular and personalized AVID is to each CPU setup but could you, or anyone else for that matter, elaborate in more detail? What if I created a dual boot-up system, would that help? Any other thoughts, concerns, comments pleease :] Thanks in advance!!

Darren Houle · November 20th, 2003, 03:13 PM

No, you can still install other apps, but you should test Avid functionality afterwards. For instance reboot the system to make sure everything starts up okay, make sure the dongle still works (other apps may install their own Sentinel drivers), make sure the capture utility still works, if you're using a Raptor board make sure the RapNavi utility still works, etc. Just test everything after installing. The number one biggest headache for me has been MS service packs. Avid support will tell you that you should never install software, BIOS upgrades, MS Service packs, etc. without checking with them first.

Dual boot... I don't know. That might work okay, might not. Check with Avid. I know that Avid requires (on windows) the NTFS file system and is sensitive to BIOS changes and both of those are defined at an early point in system setup... could potentially affect the Avid software later even on a dual boot system. Really not sure though as I haven't done dual boot.

Note... with their new Avid Xpress Pro they've gone to great lengths to get the software to play nice on laptops, use generic firewire ports instead of requiring Raptor boards, bahaving on laptop displays, and such. They've fixed alot of bugs and the software works really well.

I run Avid Xpress Pro very successfully on a Dell Inspiron 8500, 2.5 GHz P4, 1 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce4 4200 Go mobile, on Windows XP Pro SP1 (and most of the MS Windows critical updates) with other software such as Photoshop 7, Novell networking client, Cisco Airnet wireless NIC, Intervideo WinDVD, DivX codec and player, 3D Max R4, Norton Utilities 2002, and other strange stuff like Nero and Etherpeek so yes, you can install other apps... but just be careful and check functionality after installing them to make sure you didn't break anything in Avid, or else cross check Avid support for those apps before you install, that's all.

Later!
Darren

Zack Birlew · November 20th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Whew! Did you guys all reply today or what =D? Well, I guess I have no other choice but to go AVID! I figured as much, especially because that guy that made the El Mariachi movies uses AVID and that is a selling point for me. But yeah, I'm trying to break into the film industry with this one, I'd prolly just show my movie in the big places, like my hometown, then in San Fran, Sacramento, and L.A. and, depending on popularity, I can maybe get some backing and have a national release. Big dreams I know, but hey, I'm willing to go for it ;) (besides, I'm just posting on some internet message board for crying out loud so I can say whatever). Maybe get an oscar if it turns out really well. It'll be a little film, haven't gotten the name down yet, or the copyright (hence why I'm not telling you what it's about ^_^). But anyway, yeah, so I shouldn't use ANY film-look-alike filters when displaying this thing up on film? What about Frame movie mode then? Can I use that? Also, what's a good portable/non-portable mixer to use for my sound? I was planning on having two shotgun mics on the actors, along with wireless mics for added support, so what do you think? Also, does AVID support the Matrox RTX.100 Xtreme? (Wouldn't hurt to ask neh?)

Richard Alvarez · November 20th, 2003, 09:13 PM

NO Avid does not support the Matrox Extreme. Avid is a cpu driven realtime software. For ADDITIONAL realtime acceleration (More effects, more videostreams, higher resolution like uncompressed 601) you can add the MOJO. This is part of the DNA line (Digital NonLinnear Accelerators)

Lots of people dual boot their systems, it seems to be a good way to isolate Avid from conflicts with other apps. For in-depth answers to all your avid questions, visit the avid boards at www.avid.com

Note, Avid XpressPRO contains the filmcutting tools. The new Avid XpressDV4 DOES NOT. They have cut out some of the extra apps, but upgraded some of the features for the lower priced Avid XpressDV ($650 I think). So you can get into Avid for a lot less than Pro, but if you are needing to conform a film neg, then go with Pro.

Avid and FCP have good negative/film cutting tools.

Zack Birlew · November 20th, 2003, 10:13 PM

Guys, I know which AVID distribution I'm going to go for, which is AVID Xpress Pro with the MOJO. But I was wondering, wouldn't just reinstalling AVID fix the mentioned problems should problems occur?

Richard Alvarez · November 21st, 2003, 08:18 AM

Reinstalling any app sometimes helps... There is no single answer to "What if I have `some sort' of problem with xyz software?" It all depends on the software, the system, the problem.

Avid XpressDV PRo with MOJO is a big investment, over three grand for software and accelerator alone, without a CPU, monitors, speakers, etc. Lots can be done with just the software alone.

Glen Elliott · November 21st, 2003, 08:28 AM

Does Premiere Pro even support 5.1?

I'd suggest Vegas+DVD, it's got 5.1, AC-3, and native 24p right out of the box.

Randy Reyes · November 21st, 2003, 10:54 AM

With all the quirks of installing & uninstalling stuff on your pc with avid on it, would a 'gaming/editing with avid' machine be out of the question. It seems like the more I research avid, the more I'm learning that an avid system really needs to be dedicated to solely to its own purpose. Is this a correct assumption?

My rough 'new system sketch' is as follows, any comments are welcome & encouraged :]

- Asus P4C800-E deluxe mobo
- Pentium 4 3.0ghz
- Maxtor SATA
>60gig [boot/apps/games]
>60gig [media/etc/3d work]
>120gig
>120gig [RAID 0 - video]
- 1 gig Corsair pc3200 memory
- ATI Radeon 9700pro *thinking of modding it to FireGL X1*
- Main Software:
>maybe AVID Express Pro or Vegas
>Adobe After Effects & Photoshop
>Maya Unlimited

Glen Elliott · November 21st, 2003, 11:03 AM

Same exact config as me with a few differences:

-P4C800-E Delux (also)
-P4 3.0 ghz (also)
-1 gig of Corsair PC3200 XMS (also)
-Maxtor SATA drives (also...but 3 120gig drives)
-ATi Radeon (also...but the 9800 pro)

This config works great for my editing in Vegas and graphic work in Photoshop. I have, however, encountered problems concerning the onboard Promise Raid Controler and onboard IEEE. I can't capture using onboard IEEE to the drive(s) on the Promise controler slots. Drop frames like crazy. Yet if I capture using Audigy 2's IEEE it's fine. Definitly something up between those two onboard devices- they don't like each other it seems. ;)

Gaming is great too- play all new games (Call of Duty, UT2k, etc) with all settings maxed and res at 1280x1024 @ 32bit color and still get 80+ fps. Sometimes when no action is going on I'm in the high 120's.

Oh and Randy as a fellow DVX owner...Vegas is the ONLY way to go. Native 24p support!

Richard Alvarez · November 21st, 2003, 02:09 PM

FCP and Avid both suggest you dedicate your system to editing. This means the less time you spend on the internet or "reconfiguring" for games, the better the app rund. No frame dropping.

Lots of people run photoshop, after effects, boris, illustrator, office, etc as well.

Avid supports 24p editing. Avid cutlists are readily accepted by labs. (Not sure why Vegas fans seem to think its the only one)

www.avid.com

Glen Elliott · November 21st, 2003, 02:32 PM

Granted I've never worked with Avid but I've heard it's not very intuitive. Much larger learning curve. Vegas is has a simple, clean, inerface with little to no learing curve. Plus it definatly has the most bang for the buck with all of it's ablities.
Plus who want's to put a grand or two into a computer to "DEVOTE" just to an NLE!

November 20th, 2003, 06:42 PM	#22
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Whew! Did you guys all reply today or what =D? Well, I guess I have no other choice but to go AVID! I figured as much, especially because that guy that made the El Mariachi movies uses AVID and that is a selling point for me. But yeah, I'm trying to break into the film industry with this one, I'd prolly just show my movie in the big places, like my hometown, then in San Fran, Sacramento, and L.A. and, depending on popularity, I can maybe get some backing and have a national release. Big dreams I know, but hey, I'm willing to go for it ;) (besides, I'm just posting on some internet message board for crying out loud so I can say whatever). Maybe get an oscar if it turns out really well. It'll be a little film, haven't gotten the name down yet, or the copyright (hence why I'm not telling you what it's about ^_^). But anyway, yeah, so I shouldn't use ANY film-look-alike filters when displaying this thing up on film? What about Frame movie mode then? Can I use that? Also, what's a good portable/non-portable mixer to use for my sound? I was planning on having two shotgun mics on the actors, along with wireless mics for added support, so what do you think? Also, does AVID support the Matrox RTX.100 Xtreme? (Wouldn't hurt to ask neh?) __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

November 20th, 2003, 10:13 PM	#24
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Guys, I know which AVID distribution I'm going to go for, which is AVID Xpress Pro with the MOJO. But I was wondering, wouldn't just reinstalling AVID fix the mentioned problems should problems occur? __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

November 19th, 2003, 10:06 PM	#16
Darren Houle New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 5	I use Avid Xpress Pro (without a Mojo) and have used Premiere once. I would have to agree that Premiere was not as stable as I'd have liked and the interface was a little glitchy if I overtaxed it. Avid has a steeper learning curve, a higher price tag, and higher system requirements, but it's the NLE for me. By the way, I realize the Mojo does more than this but basically it's 1) an AD/DA converter, and 2) an additional external processor used to preview effects in realtime without rendering. I chose not to get one because I already have a standalone Sony DVMC-DA2 (and my GL2 can act as an analog to digital converter) and Avid Xpress Pro renders almost all it's effects in real time now without rendering anyway. Only the more complicated layered effects and 3D stuff requires rendering. I haven't missed the Mojo, but then again I don't know what I'm missing, do I. My only complaint about the Avid software is that you have to build a system to house it and then you can never patch/upgrade/install any software again... Avid is really sensitive to BIOS upgrades, new video drivers, playing nice alongside other apps (photoshop's gamma tool in the Windows Startup folder killed Avid playback) and installing Windows service packs can mysteriously disable things like your system's firewire port. Heck, just installing Avid activated a new and annoying double beep that happens everytime the system boots (on a system with no SCSI drives). My recommendation... go with Avid, but install it on a clean new server and then leave it alone.

November 19th, 2003, 10:34 PM	#17
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	As with AVID, is it true that FCP is about the only other NLE that can export EDL's that film labs can use? Zac

November 20th, 2003, 07:56 AM	#19
Mark Jefferson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Collinsville, Illinois Posts: 86	I've heard good things about Vegas Video. Personally, I'm too lazy to try and learn another NLE. I use Premiere 6.5 and have learned to live with the bugs. Save early, save often! Let me know what you think of Vegas. Cheers, slakrboy

November 20th, 2003, 11:03 AM	#20
Randy Reyes Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 54	Hi Darren! In regards to your previous comment... So you mean to tell me that after I've installed avid on my CPU, I won't be able to install other programs (etc) safely without affecting AVID? I've heard how particular and personalized AVID is to each CPU setup but could you, or anyone else for that matter, elaborate in more detail? What if I created a dual boot-up system, would that help? Any other thoughts, concerns, comments pleease :] Thanks in advance!!

November 20th, 2003, 03:13 PM	#21
Darren Houle New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 5	No, you can still install other apps, but you should test Avid functionality afterwards. For instance reboot the system to make sure everything starts up okay, make sure the dongle still works (other apps may install their own Sentinel drivers), make sure the capture utility still works, if you're using a Raptor board make sure the RapNavi utility still works, etc. Just test everything after installing. The number one biggest headache for me has been MS service packs. Avid support will tell you that you should never install software, BIOS upgrades, MS Service packs, etc. without checking with them first. Dual boot... I don't know. That might work okay, might not. Check with Avid. I know that Avid requires (on windows) the NTFS file system and is sensitive to BIOS changes and both of those are defined at an early point in system setup... could potentially affect the Avid software later even on a dual boot system. Really not sure though as I haven't done dual boot. Note... with their new Avid Xpress Pro they've gone to great lengths to get the software to play nice on laptops, use generic firewire ports instead of requiring Raptor boards, bahaving on laptop displays, and such. They've fixed alot of bugs and the software works really well. I run Avid Xpress Pro very successfully on a Dell Inspiron 8500, 2.5 GHz P4, 1 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce4 4200 Go mobile, on Windows XP Pro SP1 (and most of the MS Windows critical updates) with other software such as Photoshop 7, Novell networking client, Cisco Airnet wireless NIC, Intervideo WinDVD, DivX codec and player, 3D Max R4, Norton Utilities 2002, and other strange stuff like Nero and Etherpeek so yes, you can install other apps... but just be careful and check functionality after installing them to make sure you didn't break anything in Avid, or else cross check Avid support for those apps before you install, that's all. Later! Darren

November 20th, 2003, 09:13 PM	#23
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	NO Avid does not support the Matrox Extreme. Avid is a cpu driven realtime software. For ADDITIONAL realtime acceleration (More effects, more videostreams, higher resolution like uncompressed 601) you can add the MOJO. This is part of the DNA line (Digital NonLinnear Accelerators) Lots of people dual boot their systems, it seems to be a good way to isolate Avid from conflicts with other apps. For in-depth answers to all your avid questions, visit the avid boards at www.avid.com Note, Avid XpressPRO contains the filmcutting tools. The new Avid XpressDV4 DOES NOT. They have cut out some of the extra apps, but upgraded some of the features for the lower priced Avid XpressDV ($650 I think). So you can get into Avid for a lot less than Pro, but if you are needing to conform a film neg, then go with Pro. Avid and FCP have good negative/film cutting tools.

November 21st, 2003, 08:18 AM	#25
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Reinstalling any app sometimes helps... There is no single answer to "What if I have `some sort' of problem with xyz software?" It all depends on the software, the system, the problem. Avid XpressDV PRo with MOJO is a big investment, over three grand for software and accelerator alone, without a CPU, monitors, speakers, etc. Lots can be done with just the software alone.

November 21st, 2003, 08:28 AM	#26
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Does Premiere Pro even support 5.1? I'd suggest Vegas+DVD, it's got 5.1, AC-3, and native 24p right out of the box.

November 21st, 2003, 10:54 AM	#27
Randy Reyes Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 54	With all the quirks of installing & uninstalling stuff on your pc with avid on it, would a 'gaming/editing with avid' machine be out of the question. It seems like the more I research avid, the more I'm learning that an avid system really needs to be dedicated to solely to its own purpose. Is this a correct assumption? My rough 'new system sketch' is as follows, any comments are welcome & encouraged :] - Asus P4C800-E deluxe mobo - Pentium 4 3.0ghz - Maxtor SATA >60gig [boot/apps/games] >60gig [media/etc/3d work] >120gig >120gig [RAID 0 - video] - 1 gig Corsair pc3200 memory - ATI Radeon 9700pro thinking of modding it to FireGL X1 - Main Software: >maybe AVID Express Pro or Vegas >Adobe After Effects & Photoshop >Maya Unlimited

November 21st, 2003, 11:03 AM	#28
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Same exact config as me with a few differences: -P4C800-E Delux (also) -P4 3.0 ghz (also) -1 gig of Corsair PC3200 XMS (also) -Maxtor SATA drives (also...but 3 120gig drives) -ATi Radeon (also...but the 9800 pro) This config works great for my editing in Vegas and graphic work in Photoshop. I have, however, encountered problems concerning the onboard Promise Raid Controler and onboard IEEE. I can't capture using onboard IEEE to the drive(s) on the Promise controler slots. Drop frames like crazy. Yet if I capture using Audigy 2's IEEE it's fine. Definitly something up between those two onboard devices- they don't like each other it seems. ;) Gaming is great too- play all new games (Call of Duty, UT2k, etc) with all settings maxed and res at 1280x1024 @ 32bit color and still get 80+ fps. Sometimes when no action is going on I'm in the high 120's. Oh and Randy as a fellow DVX owner...Vegas is the ONLY way to go. Native 24p support!

November 21st, 2003, 02:09 PM	#29
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	FCP and Avid both suggest you dedicate your system to editing. This means the less time you spend on the internet or "reconfiguring" for games, the better the app rund. No frame dropping. Lots of people run photoshop, after effects, boris, illustrator, office, etc as well. Avid supports 24p editing. Avid cutlists are readily accepted by labs. (Not sure why Vegas fans seem to think its the only one) www.avid.com

November 21st, 2003, 02:32 PM	#30
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Granted I've never worked with Avid but I've heard it's not very intuitive. Much larger learning curve. Vegas is has a simple, clean, inerface with little to no learing curve. Plus it definatly has the most bang for the buck with all of it's ablities. Plus who want's to put a grand or two into a computer to "DEVOTE" just to an NLE!