New Model Hd1a

Felipe Del Villar · July 25th, 2006, 06:34 PM

I don't think a review based on the promotional material of Samsung is valid...maybe they used the HD1, or they scaled the image. Marketing departments have different purposes for brochures, and being the base for reviews is not one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euisung Lee

Akihabaranews still not liking HD1 or HD1a.

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...n+new+HD1.html

Yet if that movie capture image they are criticizing is really from HD1a, it may be possible that they fixed the diagonal problem. It's blown up so much to show zaggies anyways but the patterns are even on both diagonal directions! :)

But then of course, the image maybe not be from HD1 at all. If you didn't fix it you'd want to avoid revealing the infamous bug on their ad, wouldn't you?

Peter Solmssen · July 25th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Akihabaranews was using the Sanyo HD1 for their news clips; I wonder if they still are, given their low opinion. Their 720P flash travel movie looks good.

Wayne Morellini · July 26th, 2006, 12:13 AM

Yeah, I couldn't find that brochure, how do we know that it is not largely to do with his conversion of the frame to JPEG?

Still, people are talking about a movie, where is this, all I see are a couple of static images?

With that white sky I imagine it could be from the Sanyo. I understood that they were using a Sony HC1 fro news, is it true that they are now using Sanyo as well.

Have you seen the new "white" remote, does not as good as the old one.

They have mixed up (OEL screen etc) details on the HD1a information on Sanyo site. Funny Sanyo feature the gloomy LCD in comparison to the flash OEL on their flash animation, why drop it.

Graham Jones · July 26th, 2006, 01:43 AM

Apparently Kodak and SANYO have closed the OLED factory that they both jointly shared - the factory for the OLED used in the original HD1. Hence LCD..

Wayne Morellini · July 26th, 2006, 10:23 PM

Yeah, that is a bit silly, you think they could get another from somewhere else, or outsource it. I wonder if this is the real reason for the HD1a model.

The OLED was one of the really cool features of the machine, and taking it away makes it loose a bit of shine.

There has been some recent announcement of new LCD display (canon maybe, I forget) that has twice as good image, hopefully they could use something like that.

I have a question though, is there any reported problems with the OLED, I have heard reference to an "Flaky" screen.

I really think Sanyo should have improved data rate or compression at $499.

There is some potential for good news here, in the other thread I posted on the insides of the HD1, I found an article that they could have improved the noise reduction in the camera by using better motion vectoring etc, but that this would max out the bandwidth to the ram memory. If they can can upgrade the RAM memory transfer rate in the new model, then you could get better results from 9mb/s. I think that in motion and low light, it could make some situations twice as good. Lets hope they will do this (and give us a 19Mb/s mode). I hope this is for eliminating noise by examining if it is in the same point in surrounding frames (time based, I think now they call this 3D noise reduction).

There are a few other things they could do on the compression side, like get rid of crawling pixels, particularly on plain surfaces, reduction of resolution/detail, and doing shaping, on moving objects (the faster the movement, the less detail/resolution needed, but shape still needed) to reduce blocking. It would make waves look more normal. With some additional, most likely post, processing the disjointed features between macro blocks to join them up more smoothly. In small waves, I have seen the dark parts of the wave go right into the bright part of waves at the boundary of the macro block, where it looks natural for them to connect up instead. So you have these odd chunky waves crawling through, that could be better arranged to connect to each other.

Lets hope they can improve it more this time.

Chris Taylor · July 26th, 2006, 11:12 PM

Actually I am fine with 9mb a sec. in fact I prefer it. 1 hour on 4gb is nice and I would be upset at less than that. That alone already means I have to buy $200 worth of memory cards to get 2 hours of video !!

Fix the diagonal jaggies. Improve the compression algorithms Improve Low light and if possible allow seamless 5mp capture while shooting video (IE with no pause in the video)

I would also love to see DUAL SD card slots. so I can pop in 4gb of cards and have it seamlessly jump to the second card and allow me to remove and replace the first one for downloading.

Develope Software to allow proper minimally recompressing editing of the video it captures !

Other than that I am really happy with the camera.

For PRO's no for Consumers what more could you want :-) just go watch the Mustang Air Show clip and consider that cam from a palm sized recorder for $600 AND its recompressed to wmv !! Wow is all I can say :-)

Oh and a wideangle adaptor that is made better so it does not mangle the video with curverature :-)

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Wayne Morellini · July 26th, 2006, 11:34 PM

An extra bit rate mode (or two) would not stop you from using 9 or 6Mb/s modes. But it gives some that can be used to transcode better, or to integrate footage into production with prosumer cameras ;). Yeah, more professional, but still will look more seamless on a HDTV to consumers (who could probably do with with 12-15MB/s).

Graham Jones · July 27th, 2006, 02:56 AM

Yeah, hopefully some of those things will appear on the HD2.

The HD1a is just the HD1-proper, with a few bugs worked out, presumably to give it more of a chance against the imminent competition.

Rafael Rivera · July 27th, 2006, 07:17 AM

Ideally, Sanyo would also make it so that manual changes to aperture, ND, and shutter speed would be instantly reflected in the LCD, rather than having to record first to see what you'd get. Also, an exposure lock akin to the focus lock would be great to minimize the shifts in exposure while panning. Having this and the aforementioned compression algorithm changes in a firmware upgrade would be fantastic.

Chris Wells · July 27th, 2006, 08:15 AM

Since we're all adding to the mix...

Correcting the lighting shift that occurs in the first second or two of video shots wouldn't be a bad thing either.

Wayne Morellini · July 27th, 2006, 08:48 AM

Exposure lock is a number one category thing, even for consumer. Poor. Is there any mode that locks exposure?

Chris Taylor · July 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM

I agree but look how many modes of HD we have now (hint 1) I am afraid if they up it they will not GIVE an option to use a lesser bitrate. (path of least resistance and all that)

if it was optional thats cool. then again if there was a higher bitrate mode I would likely use it resulting in annoyance at getting less than an hour on a card :-) hehehe

now if 8gb cards were available that would make things interesting.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Wayne Morellini · July 27th, 2006, 09:57 AM

Or 100GB SD.

I would say that they would not eliminate the lower rate modes, to retain length and compatibility with with ordinary DVD disks (though a dual layer would be something). The problem is 9mb/s Mpeg4 is not 15mb/s h264. I realised I had been accidentally viewing clips in 1024*768 resolution recently, instead of 1280*1024, and now the compression problems are a bit more obvious.

I think for HD2, they really need to look at H264 to sell it at a high price. 19mbs, maybe, if bluray and HD DVD etc support it.

Euisung Lee · July 29th, 2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felipe Del Villar

I don't think a review based on the promotional material of Samsung is valid...maybe they used the HD1, or they scaled the image. Marketing departments have different purposes for brochures, and being the base for reviews is not one of them.

Yes. Akihabara's criticism of HD1 wasn't very balanced and fair in the first place, IHO, and they are making another hasty judgement based on sanyo's brochure! But if that brochure image is really from HD1a's movie file, it is a very positive sign that they finally nailed the diagonal bug.

Wayne Morellini · March 15th, 2007, 01:18 PM

Lots of people have disappeared, so here is to reaching out to you:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=83398
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87867

July 26th, 2006, 01:43 AM	#34
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Apparently Kodak and SANYO have closed the OLED factory that they both jointly shared - the factory for the OLED used in the original HD1. Hence LCD.. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

July 27th, 2006, 02:56 AM	#38
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Yeah, hopefully some of those things will appear on the HD2. The HD1a is just the HD1-proper, with a few bugs worked out, presumably to give it more of a chance against the imminent competition. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

July 27th, 2006, 07:17 AM	#39
Rafael Rivera New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 10	Exposure fixes, too Ideally, Sanyo would also make it so that manual changes to aperture, ND, and shutter speed would be instantly reflected in the LCD, rather than having to record first to see what you'd get. Also, an exposure lock akin to the focus lock would be great to minimize the shifts in exposure while panning. Having this and the aforementioned compression algorithm changes in a firmware upgrade would be fantastic.

March 15th, 2007, 01:18 PM	#45
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sanyo HD2, reviews and footage (improvements). Lots of people have disappeared, so here is to reaching out to you: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=83398 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87867

July 25th, 2006, 08:00 PM	#32
Peter Solmssen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 133	Akihabaranews was using the Sanyo HD1 for their news clips; I wonder if they still are, given their low opinion. Their 720P flash travel movie looks good.

July 26th, 2006, 12:13 AM	#33
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, I couldn't find that brochure, how do we know that it is not largely to do with his conversion of the frame to JPEG? Still, people are talking about a movie, where is this, all I see are a couple of static images? With that white sky I imagine it could be from the Sanyo. I understood that they were using a Sony HC1 fro news, is it true that they are now using Sanyo as well. Have you seen the new "white" remote, does not as good as the old one. They have mixed up (OEL screen etc) details on the HD1a information on Sanyo site. Funny Sanyo feature the gloomy LCD in comparison to the flash OEL on their flash animation, why drop it.

July 26th, 2006, 10:23 PM	#35
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, that is a bit silly, you think they could get another from somewhere else, or outsource it. I wonder if this is the real reason for the HD1a model. The OLED was one of the really cool features of the machine, and taking it away makes it loose a bit of shine. There has been some recent announcement of new LCD display (canon maybe, I forget) that has twice as good image, hopefully they could use something like that. I have a question though, is there any reported problems with the OLED, I have heard reference to an "Flaky" screen. I really think Sanyo should have improved data rate or compression at $499. There is some potential for good news here, in the other thread I posted on the insides of the HD1, I found an article that they could have improved the noise reduction in the camera by using better motion vectoring etc, but that this would max out the bandwidth to the ram memory. If they can can upgrade the RAM memory transfer rate in the new model, then you could get better results from 9mb/s. I think that in motion and low light, it could make some situations twice as good. Lets hope they will do this (and give us a 19Mb/s mode). I hope this is for eliminating noise by examining if it is in the same point in surrounding frames (time based, I think now they call this 3D noise reduction). There are a few other things they could do on the compression side, like get rid of crawling pixels, particularly on plain surfaces, reduction of resolution/detail, and doing shaping, on moving objects (the faster the movement, the less detail/resolution needed, but shape still needed) to reduce blocking. It would make waves look more normal. With some additional, most likely post, processing the disjointed features between macro blocks to join them up more smoothly. In small waves, I have seen the dark parts of the wave go right into the bright part of waves at the boundary of the macro block, where it looks natural for them to connect up instead. So you have these odd chunky waves crawling through, that could be better arranged to connect to each other. Lets hope they can improve it more this time.

July 26th, 2006, 11:12 PM	#36
Chris Taylor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 132	Actually I am fine with 9mb a sec. in fact I prefer it. 1 hour on 4gb is nice and I would be upset at less than that. That alone already means I have to buy $200 worth of memory cards to get 2 hours of video !! Fix the diagonal jaggies. Improve the compression algorithms Improve Low light and if possible allow seamless 5mp capture while shooting video (IE with no pause in the video) I would also love to see DUAL SD card slots. so I can pop in 4gb of cards and have it seamlessly jump to the second card and allow me to remove and replace the first one for downloading. Develope Software to allow proper minimally recompressing editing of the video it captures ! Other than that I am really happy with the camera. For PRO's no for Consumers what more could you want :-) just go watch the Mustang Air Show clip and consider that cam from a palm sized recorder for $600 AND its recompressed to wmv !! Wow is all I can say :-) Oh and a wideangle adaptor that is made better so it does not mangle the video with curverature :-) Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/

July 26th, 2006, 11:34 PM	#37
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	An extra bit rate mode (or two) would not stop you from using 9 or 6Mb/s modes. But it gives some that can be used to transcode better, or to integrate footage into production with prosumer cameras ;). Yeah, more professional, but still will look more seamless on a HDTV to consumers (who could probably do with with 12-15MB/s).

July 27th, 2006, 08:15 AM	#40
Chris Wells Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kelowna, Canada Posts: 148	Since we're all adding to the mix... Correcting the lighting shift that occurs in the first second or two of video shots wouldn't be a bad thing either.

July 27th, 2006, 08:48 AM	#41
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Exposure lock is a number one category thing, even for consumer. Poor. Is there any mode that locks exposure?

July 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM	#42
Chris Taylor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 132	I agree but look how many modes of HD we have now (hint 1) I am afraid if they up it they will not GIVE an option to use a lesser bitrate. (path of least resistance and all that) if it was optional thats cool. then again if there was a higher bitrate mode I would likely use it resulting in annoyance at getting less than an hour on a card :-) hehehe now if 8gb cards were available that would make things interesting. Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/

July 27th, 2006, 09:57 AM	#43
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Or 100GB SD. I would say that they would not eliminate the lower rate modes, to retain length and compatibility with with ordinary DVD disks (though a dual layer would be something). The problem is 9mb/s Mpeg4 is not 15mb/s h264. I realised I had been accidentally viewing clips in 1024768 resolution recently, instead of 12801024, and now the compression problems are a bit more obvious. I think for HD2, they really need to look at H264 to sell it at a high price. 19mbs, maybe, if bluray and HD DVD etc support it.