The beautiful, progressive flicker at DVinfo.net

Graham Jones · March 7th, 2006, 06:09 PM

I only shot a little bit of footage of my two children playing indoors at the window, was losing light, when my HD1 arrived today.

However, I was very happy. All this talk of this cam needing to be 'super-stable' and in 'controlled lighting' for us to reap the benefits is overblown.

What Sanyo were really saying and what David Pogue of the NY Times was blowing out of proportion was that you just need to be sensible with this camera.

Good handheld works extremely well. Looking at my children's faces, after looking at all that footage of parks and so on, I was struck by the fact that this is a progressive camera. The beautiful, progressive flicker is very identifiable on a progressive monitor like my 21" ultrascan computer monitor, and it's so much richer than interlaced!

Peter Solmssen · March 8th, 2006, 12:39 AM

What Graham said goes double for viewing on HDTV. A lot of the "flaws" that we have been discussing these last few months are less evident on a good HDTV.

As I noted before, it is very reminiscent of the early days of 35mm; great portability and access to pictures not otherwise possible, but requiring some care to achieve quality.

The next question is how to get edited video onto the HDTV and in what format. I am exploring TViX, which a number of people seem to like.

Emmanuel Bertin · March 8th, 2006, 02:27 AM

Graham, do your HD1 clips exhibit the same weird directional artifacts as the ones posted by Joseph and others?

Graham Jones · March 8th, 2006, 03:28 AM

I haven't seen it yet - but I'm sure I will because there haven't been any other HD1 clips without it.

I just got an e-mail back from Sanyo, after asking a couple of questions a week ago.

1. will there be a 25p model of this camera - or will all models be 30p?

2. will there ever be firmware updates for this camera - and where will they be available?

Dear Mr Graham,

In the attachment you will find the specifications of the camera VPCHD1 EX.

Regarding the firmware updates they will be available only for the Sanyo repair stations

With best regards
Electric Service Europe AG
Rémy Gugenberger
Technical Support

E-Mail : r.gugenberger@sanyo-service.com

The attachment was simply page 181 of the manual, which breaks down the cam's shooting modes! So I guess that's a definitive confirmation that there won't be a 25p HD1.

Or maybe they will release a standard defintion PD1, or something, like JVC did!

Emmanuel Bertin · March 8th, 2006, 04:23 AM

Thanks a lot Graham. I think I will stay clear of Sanyo and wait for other brands to market a similar product. These jaggies would turn me mad! :-)

Graham Jones · March 8th, 2006, 01:08 PM

Update: I am getting the jaggies everyone else got.

Graham Jones · March 9th, 2006, 05:26 AM

Few days later.

I've shot a little bit more footage with the camera and the penny is dropping.

The HD1 does not take well to subtle shifts in light.

This explains the whole 'you need a tripod and a sunny day' furore.

You don't need a tripod, you don't need a sunny day.

But now I accept that you do need consistency of light.

Luc-Henri Barthelemy · March 9th, 2006, 01:22 PM

Emmanuel & Graham,

It's a pity, we where so close from a quite perfect pocket cam (for all your good reasons Graham) !
But this new clip suffers from the same worldwide hereditary disease:
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/assets/...vpc-hd1-19.mp4
The review:
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/...l_movie_camera

We have to live with it's handicap (not me), or to wait for an improved new generation (?).
I am not sure that the incomming products from others brands will be better on a real world. For instance, have Samsung ever marketed a good flash cam ? Woo ! Don't you think I am depressed guys ? ;-)

Peter Solmssen · March 9th, 2006, 03:21 PM

I've always felt the proof was in the pudding, rather than the resolution chart. As noted elsewhere, you can't really judge this camera until you see the footage on a good HDTV.

I guess the question is where are you coming from? If you are comparing it to an HDV camera, you will be disappointed. In my case, I was not prepared to live with the size, weight and complexity of dealing with HDV.

In comparing the HD1 to the Sony DV I was using, I kept reshooting the DV equivalent shots because I thought I must be doing something wrong. I wasn't; the HD1 just looks that much better on the HDTV.

There are lots of other advantages. Portability, having a decent still camera in the same box, and not having to deal with tape. You can easily erase individual shots, very helpful since I tend to bump record buttons while walking along. Progressive also has other advantages I hadn't considered --
in taking shots in the living room, I discovered that I had recorded the TV -- no roll bars!

Graham Jones · March 9th, 2006, 03:30 PM

The camera does have a sort of bittersweet feel to it, though.

But I agree with you Peter, the pros outweigh the cons!

Wayne Morellini · March 10th, 2006, 06:27 AM

My monitor is an accurate HD display, the faults are there, the closer you are (or the larger the display) the more obvious they are (be cautious of displays that blur (put sharpness to max), down res, filter correct the video, or have a different res than 720p, they all result in pixel blurring that hides the problems).

It is what it is, a consumer camera, it was a surprise that it performed better than expected, not that it was good.

It is better than 3Mb/s. Maybe it is better than a SD MiniDV camera, but in the end it is probably better than having no HD.

John Calder · March 25th, 2006, 08:17 PM

Request for anyone testing an HD1.
I persist with indie hopes for this HD1, I can go with
lights and a tripod, and I am wondering if the combo of
higher resolution than DV with progressive scan is going to make
greenscreen compositing work out better than in DV.

Could someone please shoot and post a short (~ 5 sec)
greenscreen test. This could be of a person in front of a
green sheet in overcast light to give even brightness on
the background. Or a toy doll or soft toy in
front of a piece of coloured card or paper (or a sheet).
Please setup if possible with some separation distance between the object/person and the background.

Chris Taylor · April 7th, 2006, 09:58 PM

without the ability to take a live feed off the camera how do you plan to do green screening ie you would have to "reencode" the video to accomplish this would you not ?

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

John Calder · April 9th, 2006, 07:43 PM

> without the ability to take a live feed off the camera
> how do you plan to do green screening

Starts with shooting video normally with a green background behind the actors or other featured objects. "Do green screening" then happens later in the video editing software.

March 7th, 2006, 06:09 PM	#1
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	The beautiful, progressive flicker I only shot a little bit of footage of my two children playing indoors at the window, was losing light, when my HD1 arrived today. However, I was very happy. All this talk of this cam needing to be 'super-stable' and in 'controlled lighting' for us to reap the benefits is overblown. What Sanyo were really saying and what David Pogue of the NY Times was blowing out of proportion was that you just need to be sensible with this camera. Good handheld works extremely well. Looking at my children's faces, after looking at all that footage of parks and so on, I was struck by the fact that this is a progressive camera. The beautiful, progressive flicker is very identifiable on a progressive monitor like my 21" ultrascan computer monitor, and it's so much richer than interlaced! __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

March 8th, 2006, 03:28 AM	#4
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	I haven't seen it yet - but I'm sure I will because there haven't been any other HD1 clips without it. I just got an e-mail back from Sanyo, after asking a couple of questions a week ago. 1. will there be a 25p model of this camera - or will all models be 30p? 2. will there ever be firmware updates for this camera - and where will they be available? Dear Mr Graham, In the attachment you will find the specifications of the camera VPCHD1 EX. Regarding the firmware updates they will be available only for the Sanyo repair stations With best regards Electric Service Europe AG Rémy Gugenberger Technical Support E-Mail : r.gugenberger@sanyo-service.com The attachment was simply page 181 of the manual, which breaks down the cam's shooting modes! So I guess that's a definitive confirmation that there won't be a 25p HD1. Or maybe they will release a standard defintion PD1, or something, like JVC did! __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

March 8th, 2006, 01:08 PM	#6
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Update: I am getting the jaggies everyone else got. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

March 9th, 2006, 05:26 AM	#7
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Few days later. I've shot a little bit more footage with the camera and the penny is dropping. The HD1 does not take well to subtle shifts in light. This explains the whole 'you need a tripod and a sunny day' furore. You don't need a tripod, you don't need a sunny day. But now I accept that you do need consistency of light. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

March 9th, 2006, 01:22 PM	#8
Luc-Henri Barthelemy Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Paris France Posts: 29	Once more ! Emmanuel & Graham, It's a pity, we where so close from a quite perfect pocket cam (for all your good reasons Graham) ! But this new clip suffers from the same worldwide hereditary disease: http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/assets/...vpc-hd1-19.mp4 The review: http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/...l_movie_camera We have to live with it's handicap (not me), or to wait for an improved new generation (?). I am not sure that the incomming products from others brands will be better on a real world. For instance, have Samsung ever marketed a good flash cam ? Woo ! Don't you think I am depressed guys ? ;-)

March 8th, 2006, 12:39 AM	#2
Peter Solmssen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 133	What Graham said goes double for viewing on HDTV. A lot of the "flaws" that we have been discussing these last few months are less evident on a good HDTV. As I noted before, it is very reminiscent of the early days of 35mm; great portability and access to pictures not otherwise possible, but requiring some care to achieve quality. The next question is how to get edited video onto the HDTV and in what format. I am exploring TViX, which a number of people seem to like.

March 8th, 2006, 02:27 AM	#3
Emmanuel Bertin New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Paris, France Posts: 14	Graham, do your HD1 clips exhibit the same weird directional artifacts as the ones posted by Joseph and others?

March 8th, 2006, 04:23 AM	#5
Emmanuel Bertin New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Paris, France Posts: 14	Thanks a lot Graham. I think I will stay clear of Sanyo and wait for other brands to market a similar product. These jaggies would turn me mad! :-)

March 9th, 2006, 03:21 PM	#9
Peter Solmssen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 133	I've always felt the proof was in the pudding, rather than the resolution chart. As noted elsewhere, you can't really judge this camera until you see the footage on a good HDTV. I guess the question is where are you coming from? If you are comparing it to an HDV camera, you will be disappointed. In my case, I was not prepared to live with the size, weight and complexity of dealing with HDV. In comparing the HD1 to the Sony DV I was using, I kept reshooting the DV equivalent shots because I thought I must be doing something wrong. I wasn't; the HD1 just looks that much better on the HDTV. There are lots of other advantages. Portability, having a decent still camera in the same box, and not having to deal with tape. You can easily erase individual shots, very helpful since I tend to bump record buttons while walking along. Progressive also has other advantages I hadn't considered -- in taking shots in the living room, I discovered that I had recorded the TV -- no roll bars!

March 9th, 2006, 03:30 PM	#10
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	The camera does have a sort of bittersweet feel to it, though. But I agree with you Peter, the pros outweigh the cons! __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

March 10th, 2006, 06:27 AM	#11
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	My monitor is an accurate HD display, the faults are there, the closer you are (or the larger the display) the more obvious they are (be cautious of displays that blur (put sharpness to max), down res, filter correct the video, or have a different res than 720p, they all result in pixel blurring that hides the problems). It is what it is, a consumer camera, it was a surprise that it performed better than expected, not that it was good. It is better than 3Mb/s. Maybe it is better than a SD MiniDV camera, but in the end it is probably better than having no HD.

March 25th, 2006, 08:17 PM	#12
John Calder New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckand, New Zealand Posts: 13	Greenscreen test please Request for anyone testing an HD1. I persist with indie hopes for this HD1, I can go with lights and a tripod, and I am wondering if the combo of higher resolution than DV with progressive scan is going to make greenscreen compositing work out better than in DV. Could someone please shoot and post a short (~ 5 sec) greenscreen test. This could be of a person in front of a green sheet in overcast light to give even brightness on the background. Or a toy doll or soft toy in front of a piece of coloured card or paper (or a sheet). Please setup if possible with some separation distance between the object/person and the background.

April 7th, 2006, 09:58 PM	#13
Chris Taylor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 132	without the ability to take a live feed off the camera how do you plan to do green screening ie you would have to "reencode" the video to accomplish this would you not ? Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com/

April 9th, 2006, 07:43 PM	#14
John Calder New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckand, New Zealand Posts: 13	Live feed not needed > without the ability to take a live feed off the camera > how do you plan to do green screening Starts with shooting video normally with a green background behind the actors or other featured objects. "Do green screening" then happens later in the video editing software.